Discuss 5 February 2021 MWstake Meeting

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Raw transcript:

Mark: Deeply Community acceptance is hugely important. You need to be cohort.

Vincent: Hey guys.

Mark: Hey.

Vincent: How's it going?

Mark: It is progressing a pace.

Bryan: If? A good good thing.

Mark: What hey, I'm alive. That's good. I've been I've done been on the edge of death before, so yeah, being alive is good. There's a, there's moment ten years ago when people thought I wouldn't come out of high arm. There was a chance, I wouldn't come out of the hospital, but I did. So everything since then is bonus,

Bryan: yeah, I suppose that puts things in perspective,

Mark: Anyway, did you get a haircut? No.

Bryan: I always cut it. I just cut it myself every once in a

Mark: you just,

Bryan: while, and it gets a little bit too long, but no, I haven't done for a while. I need to

Mark: Maybe I should try that. Maybe I should try that. Cutting it myself. Oh I I could cut it myself. Sure. Why not? Little clip here.

Bryan: well, it's really easy if you want to

Mark: Anyway.

Bryan: just have like a number two, on a razor and just go to town.

Mark: Well, but then I have to keep up and this is better. I don't have to do anything. so,

Vincent: Yeah, I usually cut my own air, too. I just get a really small garden just

Bryan: Yeah.

Vincent: all the way around.

Bryan: Yeah. I bought a razor when I was like, I

Mark: I,

Bryan: don't know a kid and then, you know,

Ike: Here.

Bryan: have to buy a few through time but otherwise it saves a lot of money and haircuts over time.

Mark: Yep. Oh all I think when I well not all, I think I release. There's some of you or otherwise but I, I I'm sorry but I think a lot of Bald men. Go to just, this is, this is crazy and I just shave it off at least nowadays. You should be why I was growing up. Bald men were bold and they were just bold but now he's everyone, shaves off.

Ike: If?

Mark: Yeah.

Bryan: in Vincent, I I Jared Olson made some

Mark: Anyway,

Bryan: updates to the Mesa page is, is he using it? It is new job. We convince them to use it.

Vincent: I don't, I'm not completely sure. I know he wants to, I know he was going in to the new job wanting to sell everybody on it. So if I had to guess, if he's not using it yet, it will be soon.

Bryan: Awesome.

Vincent: Yeah. Speaking of Mezza. I finally started trying to complete like Set Side of time or set time aside to start learning ansible so I can try and make some contributions to him as a

Bryan: What's the process there? Did you grab a book? Start on some little project, or

Vincent: h it's it's I think I think I posted about it on on not right. What is it called now element that I found some courses on udemy.com? yeah, and so I just try and do those every now and then whenever I have time in between working class I'm at the very beginning, so I can't really tell you much about it right now. The only thing I can tell you is I know how to spell ansible now. So,

Bryan: oh,

Vincent: It's a bad as far as I can tell you.

Ike: Got to start somewhere.

Vincent: Yeah.

Bryan: you have access to James is he is he got time enough for you to you know, ask questions or anything or He?

Vincent: Every now and then. So since we're all so working from home I really don't have the so

Bryan: Alright.

Vincent: So before I used to be able to just walk down the hallway and then bug them. Now, I can't really walk over to his house and bring on his doorbell. So Now, as of right now, I don't have a chance to really bug him about things or ask them questions just out of nowhere. So I can leave him like messages here and there but I try and only bring him like super important stuff whenever I can. So because I know he's a his priorities have changed a little bit at work because his his boss has him doing other projects right now besides Wiki. Which kind of kicked off why I wanted to learn more about Mesa so that I can offload him on certain things.

Bryan: Yeah. What's a good opportunity? I mean be better. If you had a goal and you had, you know, easier access to him and maybe Darren but, Yeah, good.

Vincent: Yeah. Yeah, since the since they're both flight controllers and work at Michigan control and I don't it's gonna be a lot easier for for us. Once I learn Mesa to basically keep the ball rolling and so I can interface with with y'all a lot easier than than they probably could. Because I know at any given moment, they can be really busy. So

Bryan: Yeah. Do You Know Rich Evans?

Vincent: Yeah, I Know Rich.

Ike: If?

Bryan: He's probably a good resource too.

Mark: You.

Bryan: He's really dove in. and there's a

Vincent: Gadget. Yeah, I I he and I we talked a few months back. And it was whenever I first started scouring the internet about how to learn about ansible, because he was introducing me to Pi wikibot, and he wants to get that Incorporated on as a. And I'm all for it, is, I brought it up to James and eat. He didn't say, he wasn't for, it is

Mark: Here.

Vincent: just, he said it has a bunch of stuff he wants to fix for Mezza, before he tries to make time to incorporate plywood butt.

Bryan: make sense.

Vincent: Yeah.

Mark: What sort of things you, what sort of

Bryan: on a

Mark: things you do you want to do with PI Wiki bot?

Vincent: Um, off the top of my head, we have this, this script that we want that, we used to run that would like basically read data from Michigan control and kind of right like update pages on Isis, Wiki based off of what other people putting up that database and it was kind of circumventing permissions in a sense. Not really because it was we would like use our own credentials to sign in and then basically copy and paste almost. But since that wasn't, What we wanted to do, we wanted to make a bot that had its own permissions and everything so that we're we can keep track of whenever the bot actually did something versus what somebody else did. And so then we turned it off until we could actually make it more efficient and so I know pie wiki Bots. It would be the next step to bring it back, so, that's the first thing that I can think of, for something I would want to use by Wiki bot for but other than that, probably maintenance scripts and

Mark: so, um,

Vincent: Whatnot.

Mark: You're talking about copying data from. a, from a database to To page a page on the wiki or several Pages would have put it on different pages.

Vincent: Several.

Mark: Depending what

Vincent: Yeah, so each page has has its own page based off of like a row in the database. And so it was a basically creating Pages if they didn't exist and then updating them on ISS Wiki.

Mark: Okay. so, so it's not, it's not just a page

Vincent: Yeah.

Mark: that has all the data. It's a bunch of

Vincent: Right.

Mark: so that could be useful to someone else who is only interested in a particular bit of the of whatever is coming out and doesn't

Vincent: Right.

Mark: want to query the database.

Vincent: Yeah, and so it's it's soup. It was super helpful when we had it at first up and running copy and facing because then like you said, we could query the wiki side as opposed to trying to query the the other database. And so and that the wiki side had a bunch of edits and other extra data that we incorporated with everything. And so I gave more context to people. like, in a way, shorter amount of time, so Yeah.

Mark: Yeah I like how the things I've heard about the what NASA is doing with their Wiki. It sounds like you'll really For, for lack of a better word, add narrative around your data as to just, you know, data.

Vincent: Yeah. It's a, it's definitely a really a great tool. The more I learn about it because I when I was first started back in like the end of 2017, it was the first time I ever heard of media Wick. I mean, I've heard of Wikipedia like, majority people but didn't know what media Wiki was. And so I start, I don't know if you all, remember my first conference, I went to Alice, I asked what's his name. Lex. I selects what a category was. And because he was giving his his presentation over, I forgot the topic but I remember in the first five minutes, everything was over my head because I didn't know anything about Wiki. And so he I remember he since I was sitting in front of everything, he asked me like after the the presentation was over. He's like, hey, he's like, you enjoy the presentation. What you think type of thing and I was like, I didn't know what was going on. I was like, I was like so I was like, I just started Googling everything he was talking about while he was talking and he was like, oh he's like what do you need help with? Trying to understand about Wiki. And I was like, first off, what's a category? And so and that's when he realized he was like, oh he's like, he's like, how brand new are you to Wicked? I was like this is probably the most I've ever heard Wiki into before outside of NASA type of thing. And so Yeah, that's what my introduction to

Mark: so,

Vincent: Lex Wilson.

Mark: So that was in Houston, right?

Vincent: Yeah, that was the one in Houston.

Mark: so that that's really if you think about it, that's a compelling case for having these conferences, finding good localities for them because it brings in people like you who you know, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason for you to go and you're just like You know, this is awesome. I want to do more of this.

Vincent: Right.

Mark: take over the ansible stuff for Mezza.

Vincent: Right. And so, I know, one of my goals is one of my dreams with would be to. I want to help contribute to getting more. Like, I guess like beginners are like, anybody that doesn't have a clue about how great Wiki is and being able to explain that to somebody who doesn't have a clue and show them how Wiki could help their Enterprise, their company, whatever, it is, become more efficient and because I know it's a great tool. It's just what I've seen my personal opinion. It's really tough to explain that to people because if you just tell them oh Wiki is great and they say how and then we can tell them everything under the sun about it. But if They don't know what's going on. I would be looking like I did at the first Wiki conference and they're like, okay, that's nice.

Bryan: I think that's gonna be really helpful. Like, you know, if, if you were to give a little talk at one of the next conferences, you know, just wikis from a beginner's perspective, you know, that video to be able to share would be super super helpful.

Vincent: Yeah, I am.

Mark: Yeah.

Vincent: do it. I I know I before the end of the world happened, I was going around NASA and explaining Wiki to different groups, that support the space station and telling them how we want them to take their group and put their data that they can share on to the ISS Wiki just because we had to start. We didn't just start with ISS wicking and everybody jumped on board. We had to sell it to them and so I had to go around a different groups. Explaining what Wiki was? Why it's beneficial and whatnot. And so each presentation was catered to each group and so I got a chance to talk to a lot of people who don't know a thing about Wiki. And so, I think it would be great to bring that all those experiences I had with those people and all those conversations to outside of NASA to say, hey, this is how a lot of people. and so it could kind of help paint a picture for everybody here to know what non-wikiers, think about Wiki,

Mark: Yeah.

Bryan: Yeah, it's hard.

Mark: Yep.

Bryan: Like once you once you're in a world for a while, it's hard to think, what, like the newbies think, right? And so having that active is really

Vincent: Right.

Bryan: helpful.

Vincent: Yeah, so that's definitely something. I want to help contribute. To our whole Wiki community. And then once I learned how to code more, I want to contribute more on the coding side, too.

Bryan: Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat.

Mark: um, so we have Lex here now and Bernard I I have to ask Bernard, do you pronounce your name, Bernard or Bernhard?

Bernhard: Then well the English ways is Bernard but of course in German it's been hot are here. So yeah, Bernard is fine. Cook now and forget them, that's really stupid.

Bryan: Quick, I like the the cheat sheet there, your room. Burn hard.

Bernhard: Yeah, sorry for being late. But I have interesting news, I just talked to to be as higher who is the developer of twiki. This alternative bootstrap based skin. And basically, because I just wanted to to know if, if we if I have to continuously put efforts into using chameleon, or if we should consider this alternative and he says, well, he has a, he He needs it and you will continue developing it. And there's Other some others are jumping in with some pull requests. So there's a small community for me. so, it might be interesting, especially because, I mean, Chameleon is used a lot as bootstrap based skin and I mean it's it's great. I use it as well but there's definitely who is the main developer stops developing You know, I mean you're in has already done updating of this but he has so much on his desk. I would say. That it might be not such a bad idea to have the Tweaky and alternative that is maintained by someone else. You don't know what do you say about this? I don't want to, you know, I mean chameleon is is great, but trick is really great to I think I think it works very nice. It has some features that chameleon does not have And here we would have a developer who could spend some time on it.

Jeroen: Can you link the skin in the chat?

Bernhard: Yeah, sure.

Jeroen: I think Carson knows about the skin and was telling me about it recently. So I think there is like two interesting newish skins there. Actually, that's kind of abusing the topic here, but we are looking for somebody that can do. Majority UI work so that's can help with scanning wikis for clients and also yeah, that can just create new uis. For one thing that we did recently, we needed some UI with tabs in media Wiki. And apparently this is very difficult to do because At first thoughts, we can just do Twitter bootstrap and Lotus. But if you notice in Vector,

Bernhard: Thank you.

Jeroen: everything blows up. Yeah. A mediocre doesn't have its own thing to do Taps. I mean, there's the special preferences thing but it's a very words mechanism there. So yeah, we would really like somebody that can do UI work on top of media, Wiki. So if you know somebody that wants a

Bernhard: Yes, I do. In fact I do

Jeroen: job that please send tomorrow away,

Bernhard: Oh you mean you want to hire someone permanently or you want to have someone who can do a chameleon-based scheme for you?

Jeroen: um, we wouldn't hire right away, but that might be on the table if you like what they can do.

Bernhard: Yeah, I can recommend well from Uber to you. He has implemented several chameleon subskins. Based on on a layout that a graphic designer did. So and here's an accessibility expert. So, and he knows his way around media Wiki. And, but his mostly developing Skins. And, and yeah.

Mark: So, I am curious what the difference is, but between chameleon and the new skin twiki. I mean, is it just that they both load in bootstrap and that makes that exposes a lot of stuff or is there, you know, some places where they do not overlap?

Bernhard: To be honest. I'm not so sure I have used Tweaky. Only once in one project, it saved me there because what you can do with Tweaky is you can have a Second menu, that only shows up if you're locked in. And at that time, at least chameleon couldn't do that. So this is one feature that Tweaky can do better than chameleon, or at least at that time, it was like that. other than that I mean currently what what I really liked but you is that they have, he has now a configuration variable in that says use bootstrap 4 yes or no. And if it's node and you can use bootstrap 3, which would help me a lot because my old wikis are based on bootstrap 3. so, but he says this is going to This is going to go away because of course if you he's not intending to to keep on supporting bootstrap 3 for a long time. So this is just a temporary solution. So both. So with both, I think you have to use bootstrap 4. I think actually because Tweaky is actually not a new skin. When I first met the guy I told him. No, don't please don't start your own, your own skin, there's chameleon out there, but he was already when a metami he was already a developing it, so he didn't, it didn't find it at the time. I guess, because he wouldn't have Probably not a developed his own one. So it has been around for some time, it just is not very well known. Yeah. So I don't know more about the

Mark: Did you?

Bernhard: differences other than than this one.

Mark: Did you add the the skin to the skin gallery? They have that new gallery.

Bernhard: Right. No, I I mentioned it in on smw website because there is some there's a But not on the skin gallery. I don't know.

Mark: now, this is a, there's a

Bernhard: Yeah, it should get more attention.

Mark: There's a Wikimedia skin gallery on

Bernhard: oh,

Mark: Labs, I think so.

Bernhard: That.

Mark: Yeah, definitely. It sounds like you're running into people that we should all try to. Learn more about. So it would definitely help him if he were to put his skin over there.

Cindy: You should also Mark, add it to the repo so that code search will find

Mark: Yeah. Yeah.

Cindy: it.

Mark: Bernhard. Please give me that. I please give me. Oh, you did give the URL. I guess that has the

Bernhard: Yeah.

Mark: I guess that has could you paste it again? Because I keep I kept disconnecting here because I missed up the hang up button for the mute.

Ike: If?

Mark: Yeah. Um, so

Bryan: He really quick. I I dropped out and just came back on, but might be interested in this. They're talking about tweaky. that's how you say versus a chameleon right now, and I guess Bernhardt has talked to the developer of Tweaky and and was contemplating its use over chameleon. I know, I think you do use chameleon and have offered it and maybe even

Ike: Here.

Bryan: have added to it.

Ike: Yeah, we have a very good experience with chameleon. I think it's a great skin.

Bernhard: Yeah, it is.

Mark: Evidently though. evidently Bernard is the only person contributing to that now, and he's trying to find some way not to be in over his head as it were.

Ike: The only one contributing to

Bernhard: Well, I

Ike: chameleon.

Mark: Well that's, I don't know.

Bernhard: No, no.

Mark: I'm just telling you what I heard here. So

Ike: Okay.

Mark: All right, if you're contributing or Wiki works is contributing then, you know, I take that back.

Ike: We're no, we're not actively contributing, we're passively, I mean, we've done patches in the past but we've been using it for years. I don't know exactly how many a patches and stuff we've done, but Certainly, we can help out. I'll have to get in touch.

Bernhard: Yeah. I think, maybe a year ago or so or more. I talked to Stefan gampke regarding the the difference is, or the possibilities. of joining efforts, you know, because

Mark: If?

Bernhard: why would there be to to bootstrap based skins? Maybe they could, I don't know. Yeah, collaborate. So I might find an email from him, where he talked a little bit about different approaches. And he he found it, okay? He didn't know about it. So it's really the problem of, you know, both didn't know about their other. There are other skins as it happens. So, We now as as users have have the great, the great option of having both. So, why not? Tweaky is just really unknown and maybe it should be. Could be changed, and then there is not so much pressure on. Keeping chameleon up to date, but a lot of companies use chameleon so they, they will have an interest in. Keeping this going. Of course.

Ike: Yeah, yeah, we could definitely help out with the maintenance of the skin. You know. I don't know if you know we I don't know if we have the bandwidth to like add features but definitely, you know, if they're patches that need to be reviewed or compatibility issues, we can certainly help out with that.

Jeroen: Ah, there's also a third bootstrap skin. I think it's a newer one. I linked it in the chat.

Mark: Um Cindy, do you have the URL for the the skin Showplace or whatever that you can paste in?

Cindy: I don't have any in front of me but I think I can probably find it pretty quickly. Hold on.

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: if I feel like there's an advantage to always having two options, Once you get the three options, not

Mark: Right.

Ike: as big an advantage.

Mark: Some choice but too much choice. Get your brain messed up.

Ike: Right. I would say it's wrong. It's just

Mark: Right.

Ike: You know diminished marginal returns.

Mark: What as an American, I love choice and the abstract but

Ike: Huh.

Mark: as a Person who tries to live life. I, I don't like choice.

Ike: Yeah, I see bootstrap. Skin was reverted. It was a was what do they call? It, made obsolete. so,

Mark: Yeah. So since Cindy posted the the gallery

Ike: Archived.

Mark: or whatever it's called in the chat I think that's not, that's a That URL makes sense skins. Anyway, I guargo did create some stuff, you know, news from media Wiki that we if we want to do some some more structured stuff here, we should go over that. And it would be, I do appreciate the work you did. So I'd like to show some appreciation for by actually using it. Let me see, I'll paste that link in here. then I can get the

Bryan: That Skin. Lab is pretty cool. Like it. Pretty handy.

Mark: Yeah. And it evidently I'm not sure how it worked. Exactly. But it when I looked it looked like there was a It looked like it would make an effort to show it. Actually in use from the latest version in, in the Repository. because there was a lot Brokenness when I looked

Cindy: Yeah, I'm reading the announcement email, which was put sent to Wiki Tech Al on December 21st. And it says, It will look for skins that are in

Ike: Here.

Cindy: the skin namespace on mediocre.org. So I'm not sure is just Tweaky. Tweaky. Have a page there yet.

Ike: Yeah. That's well. Tweak is on me the wiki.org.

Bryan: The water.

Cindy: And I see that. I wonder why that is it listen right? Paula.

Ike: it's in the Skin's lab, so

Cindy: Oh, it is. Okay cool.

Mark: so,

Bernhard: Oh, yeah, and one great feature, I remember now is, you can have your semantic media. We can ask query to get you dynamically a dynamic. Menus. chameleon cannot do that in the

Cindy: Oh cool.

Bernhard: in the main. in the main heading the main menu I think

Mark: So I have one more bootstrap question. That's a real newbie bootstrap question like what are categories about media Wiki? So with bootstrap, the the advantage that as I understand that the advantages of bootstrap use, you know, using bootstrap for one skin, or for another, is that you can copy a lot of the same CSS. Is that correct? From one skin to the other? It And it is very powerful what you can do with CSS. Is that true?

Bernhard: And and it's yeah. And and this bootstrap components are a proven to be responsive. And, you know, you don't have to care about this in your own skin. You have to, you have to do that manually. And if you, if you want to use, you know, just some slider. So, or whatever that is all there, you can. You can use it and grab it. And it's It's a proven solution, I would say. And you only have to only have the headache of styling, it the way you want, but if you want to use those components, they are there and you can use it in your Wiki. And the main problem, by the way, is with the mobile front end. That's that This is not very suitable. I think if you want to have a responsive website, you don't want to have an alternative for the mobile devices. You want to have it responsive. And as far as Last time I looked the mobile front that extension would not allow you to to change the main navigation. and this is a, this is essential for every Wiki outside of medioviki foundation to have your own menus. so,

Mark: Right. um, well, I'm gonna look over. I'm gonna go over here, some of garrigo's notes from the that he has for news. I'm gonna read from the bottom. It you all know anything about anyone who's interested in mentoring, someone from Outreach or Google summer of code. That's now open. I did that one year. And the guy still occasionally keeps track of me on on Twitter. So that's that's a interesting thing. Um, not sure. I'm a good Mentor but you know, Anyway, it was fun while it lasted. Documentation on documentation. Was expanded. That's a good thing. When you have a meta item like that documentation on documentation, So, they've done. I'm gonna skip up here. They have a new RFC.

Cindy: If?

Mark: Handler. Techcom has been replaced by. Tdmp the technical decision-making

Ike: If?

Mark: process. So, a committee has been replaced by a process. Is that, is that correct Cindy?

Cindy: um, There will still be a. And I don't know if it's called a committee. Say, they are looking for developers who would represent various parts of the community. So And I think that's the key part here. There will still be a body of people that will be called upon to give advice when somebody has a um, There will still be a. And I don't know if it's called a committee. Say, they are looking for developers who would represent various parts of the community. So And I think that's the key part here. There will still be a body of people that will be called upon to give advice when somebody has a is, is has submitted. A decision, which is essentially like an RFC to be considered that has

Ike: If?

Cindy: cross-cutting concerns And they are looking for people outside of the foundation to participate in that body. And so here people with plus two can apply to be nominated until February 15th right now. Plus two rights on Garrett. Are the? There's some discussion about whether people with non-plus2 could also be considered in the future, but right now, the bar. So I don't know how many of these of you all have plus two in Garrett, but if you do I think it would be great for us to

Mark: If?

Cindy: have some folks from outside of the foundation on that body. And the responsibilities, I think that they're described in that the link to the technical decision, making products process, but they will, you'll periodically get a one of these decision documents and they want people to try to pretty consistently get feedback within seven days, which I think is a little bit aggressive. But that's the current going in position of how to do this.

Mark: If? Who else here besides me and Cindy has plus two your own. I think probably does. Bernard, do you?

Bernhard: I I didn't follow that plot was plus two.

Cindy: That would be a no.

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: If?

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: If?

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: If?

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: If?

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: If?

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: If?

Cindy: Plus two is the ability to emerge merge patches on Garrett.

Bernhard: Oh no, no.

Mark: Yeah.

Ike: I don't have close to.

Bernhard: I'm not a developer. I I just I just report backs. This is only

Cindy: didn't Wiki Tech, get plus oh was

Ike: We got we got our own group.

Cindy: plus two for subset of repos. Yeah.

Ike: I don't have plus two and I'd be surprised if you're on those though. I mean, he definitely deserves it but I don't remember ever mentioning it.

Cindy: Your own corn. Mark, were you talking about your own

Ike: Yeah.

Cindy: or your own?

Mark: I would you ruin. I'm sorry, your room.

Ike: Oh, you ruined. Okay, it's okay.

Cindy: who's I'm probably butchering both

Ike: Yeah.

Cindy: names but

Mark: I'm pretty sure your room does, um, and he's on this call extensively, so he can tell us if he does or not. but, I'm I know you are in your anyway. I know I know Wiki works. Why guy has his own repository so he has plus two on and yeah.

Bryan: so, just a quick confirmation, Karen

Ike: Yep.

Bryan: Karen is your own? I think, right?

Mark: Yes.

Bryan: And then the Dow is your room. that close enough and then

Ike: Yes.

Bryan: just just for my edification. So plus two is the ability to actually do something plus one is like a thumbs up. That doesn't hold any weight. Okay.

Cindy: Exactly. It holds some weight.

Mark: well, it Yeah. It holds some weight, but I mean, if if you have a patch that people pile on their plus ones too, then Plus two person would have to. I I you know, if you found a plus two person, To look at it. They would have to come up with the I would think it compelling reason not to do it. Oh look, it's scared go.

Bryan: What?

Ike: If?

Mark: there goes join us from the dark, recesses of

Cindy: He looks very mysterious.

Gergő: Yeah, I didn't manage to get lightning. Got into it, it's a newly. Rented flat. Hi everyone.

Cindy: Hello.

Mark: um, Yeah, so I I guess it does that does sound interesting to me that they're by making this a process instead of a committee that they're spreading out the decision-making, a little more which is very media Wiki thing to do or Wikimedia rather. um, And but still at the same time, we need to do that. Sometimes there are still real, you know, decision makers, who have to be In. Bought into it.

Cindy: So Mark, are you going to apply for the for this as somebody with a plus

Ike: If?

Cindy: two?

Mark: I I suppose I I will yes. Especially since you said you know, someone should do it and it looks like you and I and probably go or the only ones here who can do it. so, there you go, I will

Bryan: Okay, I got all up question for plus two. How, how is the how are you enlightened with plus Tunis?

Mark: The ferry comes down in in like ways of wand.

Gergő: Yeah, I think the answer is that that no one has an idea at this point, how that's going to work because that was also handled by Tech home and techcom is being disbanded. So,

Ike: Here.

Gergő: Maybe the technology evangelism team takes over. Who are the team having working on supporting developers and volunteer.

Cindy: Yeah.

Gergő: contributors. We'll see. I I linked somewhere in the attarpad, the task where that's being discussed. So your input would be very valuable. I am sure because the foundation often doesn't really think about this.

Cindy: Yep.

Mark: Yeah. Um, there was a I remember when they first did it when they first

Ike: If?

Mark: It was after I have left the foundation, I believe. Um, and someone said, oh, you don't have plus two, we someone should give Mark plus two and I was like, oh, thank you. So yeah.

Cindy: and I believe it happens automatically for foundation Engineers when they join now, it did not when I joined and I just happened to be sitting with Canal at a table at A all hands and he's like you don't have plus two yet because I had it for my own repos for my own extensions. But anyways, while we were sitting there, it got taken care of but for posts outside the foundation, I believe there's a process where you create a fabricator task and then lots of people need to pile on and say they agree. And then eventually, if enough people agree, but but the ultimate, I think, yeah, the ultimate body that decided that there were enough people agreeing was techcom before.

Gergő: Yeah, it used to be that people support you in fabricator and then get it administrators decide and then it was formalized and taken over by Tech home and now nobody knows.

Cindy: Yeah.

Mark: Um so this next item here, we have about 20 minutes left. So next item here is Slower on Debian Buster. Which is a I maybe I thought I was running Buster and maybe I was getting some slowness, I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time profiling, my code, and doing all that. So it's it's more makes more sense that we can media would notice, then I would, but and it looks like it's I was looking at kunal's post and he said, it's a Some, you know, it sounds like it's a significant amount of speed. This was there. um, does anyone does anyone know anymore about this slowness or it looks like it's process of dealing with Spectrum, mitigree mitigations which makes me think that the previous Linux version. Before Buster, whatever that was said no that's not. Did not deal with squeeze, it squeeze. Did not have these mitigations in it.

Cindy: Stretch.

Mark: Stretch.

Ike: If?

Mark: So stretch didn't have these mitigations for and if you're running stretch, your vulnerable. Is that what I'm hearing?

Gergő: Yeah. This personally the case so the way it is this was realized is that the foundation is now updating it's servers from stretch to Buster and it showed at them the graphs. So like these are not the only Spectrum mitigation so I am sure something exists in the order. Versions. But they, they hard done things. And obviously, the Specter is a very low level issue. So, this is something that's completely impossible to turn off. So, Probably.

Mark: Right.

Gergő: We'll just have to leave it.

Mark: But it provides motivation to speed up other areas of code or make sure it's all running better. So I guess that's good. I'm looking at I'm now looking at the rfcs with the god object wiki page. I remember didn't wasn't there a does this have anything to do with the, the effort a while, back to do tidal value?

Cindy: Some what? So, I'm on a team called the Expedition team within the platform engineering team where we are doing. I would say some code cleanup and one of the aspects of it is this whole wiki page page identity title. You know, basically.

Ike: If?

Cindy: Revisiting all of that code. This is one of the tasks that came out of it.

Mark: Okay. You know it. The reason, the reason I remember that, I mean besides that it happened. The other reason I remember is because Okay. You know it. The reason, the reason I remember that, I mean besides that it happened. The other reason I remember is because it seems like they abandoned the effort to implement title value throughout. Okay. You know it. The reason, the reason I remember that, I mean besides that it happened. The other reason I remember is because it seems like they abandoned the effort to implement title value throughout. Okay. You know it. The reason, the reason I remember that, I mean besides that it happened. The other reason I remember is because it seems like they abandoned the effort to implement title value throughout. Okay. You know it. The reason, the reason I remember that, I mean besides that it happened. The other reason I remember is because it seems like they abandoned the effort to implement title value throughout. Okay. You know it. The reason, the reason I remember that, I mean besides that it happened. The other reason I remember is because it seems like they abandoned the effort to implement title value throughout.

Cindy: Well yeah. I don't know what the future is of title value. but, This is a very active project right now and the other aspect of it that we were working on a few weeks ago, is authority to replace the permission manager. And so there's a new Authority object. For if in an extension you want to see if particular user is authorized to take some action So this is all ongoing. So this is more of a just a heads up of what active work is.

Mark: Well. The, the separation of user and Authority, sounds like something that would be good for, you know, a lot of users with certain third parties, like to have this authentication decision more separate from, you know, the user. So, it sounds like sounds like that's a good thing for a third party users.

Gergő: I mean, mainly the idea here is to

Mark: Potentially.

Gergő: make the code simpler by removing dependency Loops. So and you have very complicated objects or classes, then each of your classes is going to depend on each other of the classes and those are being replaced with services and very simple value objects. This has been going off for a long time. Like that's why you instead of status

Mark: Right.

Gergő: user identity instead of user. So this is just a few more steps in that process. If you maintain an extension and at some point you should probably update things to preference. The simple value object version and that is going to be a shared abstraction shared interface between the complex object and the value object to make the migration easier.

Cindy: And all of this is subject to the stable interface policy and which dictates the normal deprecation rules. So, There will be notifications as things change.

Mark: Um, does anyone want to discuss anything else about these? Rfcs there's one for dropping support for media Wiki upgrades, I could see that being interesting to some people stable. I yeah, the database upgrades things are probably going to affect more people than anything here. That's just another reason to keep motivation to keep within a few versions of media Wiki. instead of following too far behind,

Ike: And you could always upgrade twice, right?

Mark: yeah.

Cindy: Yeah.

Gergő: yeah, that that's

Ike: Not the worst in the world.

Gergő: What? That would be the idea that you have to do the updating steps. It's a bit of a pain because PHP version requirements, change. And sometimes even my sequel version requirements change. So you might to have to deal with that. On the other hand, currently we don't explicitly disallow large steps, but we Maybe probably break anyway because like maintenance scripts don't necessarily work with all database schema. So so this is sort of a promise that that we limit what, what upgrade distance is support, but those will actually work, which is not necessarily the case today.

Mark: Yep. Well it makes sense to Keep your promises realistic. As it were, when you're going to make, instead of having people assume that you're making a promise, tell them what the promise is, you're making and keep it realistic. Yeah. anyway, um, what else is going on in the world? Covid, still out there. I don't know.

Ike: If?

Mark: I'm just gonna sit here and chatter to myself.

Ike: Go ahead.

Mark: Now, you're waiting for me to chatter to myself. This is not a freak Show. We do not come for the free. But you can see. Look, you see my sign here. I have a sign. I'm just waiting for you all to line up.

Bryan: So, I will say, so, Bernhard. Did write something about, you know, hopefully going from LTS to LTS. And that's something that I agree with. You know, the the path going. And in steps you have to kind of keep up with a little bit closer and I don't know if it's worth while for a lot of users. Admins.

Mark: Yeah, I think the LTS to LTS having a change. Log there, specially of the significant changes from the LTS to the LTS. That would be. But again, that's something that I think we would have to. You know, do instead of asking, you know, the foundation probably is not going to do that. so,

Cindy: The individual change logs exist. So it's just a matter of aggregating them.

Mark: Right. Characters back. Yeah. so, There was some discussion in some channels yesterday about, you know, how? How we could give? People outside Wikimedia. Some. I guess voice. And you know, because in these decision-making Parts, they don't have voice. So, one thing would be to Fork media, Wiki and here, I'm not thinking about forkfort, you know, like we have our own developers over here, but set up is, is Richard Heigl has tried to do in the past a distribution or other people have tried to do a distribution for media. Wiki where you can say, okay, I will maintain this distribution which is aligned with the LTS versions and then you would be responsible for A change log between those LTS versions because that's you. You've worked it for marketing

Cindy: You.

Mark: purposes. I could see something like that happening. And see, I told you I rambled to myself. so I've started, um, Anyway. Does anyone win a fork? It that way? You could Fork it that way? I'm giving one of you all a task. No one's hopping up to take it. So disappointed. Anyway.

Bryan: Wouldn't quick question for Bernard again that CSS specialist that you had mentioned, usually I just copy everything into the the notes is it okay? That that goes in there as well? Okay.

Bernhard: Yeah, things I didn't ask him but it's it's from his, from his website. So it's it's all sort of his phone numbers on there.

Bryan: Okay.

Cindy: Mark. Is there anything else that was going on the media keyboard that you think

Ike: If?

Cindy: The media keyboard that you think we should pass along to the membership?

Mark: I'm sure there was but I forgot now. um, oh, one thing that we're talking about is Again, I just want to emphasize this again. If you want to pay money IQ mention this before, where can you pay money to be a member of the mediawiki stakeholders? I think it was, you like, If not, I'm gonna ask you for money

Ike: I did it.

Mark: Ike.

Ike: I died that it was me.

Mark: um, nevertheless, nevertheless Ike, since you so badly, want to pay your membership for being in media, Wiki stakeholders, you may go to Media Wiki stakeholders dot or mwaked out, org Ike and enter your credit card member numbers under On on the stuff and will and will take your money anyway.

Ike: Wow. When, when did you offer this option?

Mark: It's we've really just finalized everything. It's been there for a while, but it's been a little buggy. We haven't.

Ike: Haha.

Mark: Now if you click on the become a member, It'll ask you to log in, you can use your Google account and they'll create an account for you there, and then it'll send you to a little page, you know, say here's a steps. And then I sent you are, Wiki works. To us, our wikitech.

Ike: I'm wikipedak.

Mark: Yeah, since you are Wiki, Tech Wiki Tech can upgrade to a corporate membership. I recommend, I recommend the silver

Ike: Uh-huh.

Mark: level for 2500 dollars a year. yeah, you can you can give us money and we'll have money to Cindy. Why don't you tell him everything? He gets for his money?

Cindy: I think Brian should Brian just took a mouthful of food.

Ike: This reason he did that.

Cindy: Good timing. I do not recall off hand. All of the

Ike: Is there a tote bag involved

Cindy: Benefits.

Ike: somewhere?

Cindy: Now, no tote bag. No tote bag.

Ike: A mug.

Cindy: participate in and vote

Mark: now represent,

Cindy: vote when issues come up to vote.

Mark: we'll send you a virtual sticker.

Ike: Haha. Is there a list of current members?

Mark: that was one thing that we were asked to provide and we have not yet done that put up a page, where the list of members would be, or rather sponsors really, but

Cindy: Yeah, the higher level. The corporate members. Yeah.

Bryan: and it is an interesting question like whether should there be an option if you were You know, going to join where you would want to join anonymously and not have your name posted.

Cindy: Yep.

Mark: Yeah, I think I think we did talk about that. We've had enough trouble just getting the time to get the credit card processing done, but the credit card processing extension. Is actually a something that may be

Ike: This.

Mark: useful for other people. It's a pay to upgrade your membership sort of thing, pay to get higher privileges on the website sort of thing. So You know, if if Wiki Tech ever needs to you something like that, then? We've done some work for you there.

Ike: We actually. We actually made. So yeah, that might be even better than a tote bag.

Mark: Yeah, they there you go. They go. um, and while it is, while we do use authorized.net, but it is not, we I specifically designed it so that it would use omnipay, which can interface with a bunch of different credit card processors, So, there is that. Anyway. I think that is a I appreciate that that prompt Cindy because I've now sold another member and we now have another incoming chunk of change from from Ike.

Ike: What level did you sell?

Mark: We? I believe I sold the $5,000 member level, didn't I?

Ike: I guess. And you.

Mark: As long as you follow through, I'm happy. Um,

Ike: To be honest, I'm not sold yet. I mean I haven't gotten a tote bag.

Mark: well, we talked about this great code

Ike: haven't.

Mark: that you get. You said you wanted tote back and we gave you something better. Which is an extension.

Ike: But you didn't say, what level was required for that.

Mark: um, yeah, the First of all, you have to be an individual member, and then I can tell you where the code is.

Cindy: You haven't, you haven't uploaded it to Garrett.

Mark: No, I haven't yet. I should probably do that.

Cindy: Yeah.

Mark: oh yeah, I took I I you know, I didn't realize I did this at first but the code that Wiki Bay Solutions wrote there there developer Put it under the MIT license, and I probably should have asked, but since we're paying for the code, I just went ahead and relicensed it. So, Anyway.

Ike: What is this? Guaranteed 8 hours 16 Hour project?

Mark: That's where we're trying to understand that ourselves. And we're trying to figure all this out, we can have some you Get in on the ground floor and you can influence this and you know, some pretty substantial ways.

Ike: I see so I'll find out.

Bryan: so, two things that

Ike: So I'll find out, I'll find out when today

Bryan: that is a goal, you know is to be able to provide, you know it's kind of intended toward a company but provide a project they want and toward media Wiki and a part of their you know, a part of their

Ike: ah,

Bryan: money would go toward the creation of some, you know, extension or product or, or work that they want.

Ike: I guess.

Bryan: and the other kind of quick plug is

Ike: I see.

Bryan: about every four and a half months and We're supposed to have a new board member elected, and, you know, one that's existing step down. So if you also want to drive the future of MW stake, Let us know because we do need board members. Bernhard is the newest. Congratulations. And but yeah, there's gonna be a need in. Yeah, about another four months down the road. I do have to jump off. Actually, right right now, but I think this, this meeting will stay

Cindy: It's at all.

Bryan: My mouth. So,

Ike: If?

Mark: All right. Thanks Brian.