Discuss 4 September 2020 MWstake Meeting

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Raw transcript:

Bryan: You like and people.

Peter: Hello. I don't know if I'm visible.

Bryan: Yeah, we got the top of your forehead visible and you are in the right.

Peter: Funny I can't see myself, but that doesn't really matter. about that

Mark: alerts for watching

Peter: I'll reactivate momentarily.

Cindy: Hello.

Bryan: Is helping feedback on their side?

Cindy: I'm hearing a lot of static.

Lex: let me

Bryan: Yeah, Lexie, you're operating a vacuum cleaner.

Lex: through hello.

Mark: I still hear you. I'll be right back.

Bryan: That was actually marks. I saw. Furious gusts on his hair. I thought it was a fan or something.

Mark: Don't you love how my hair is just blowing in the wind? It's good to have that fan there. So did y'all hear about the guy who wanted to get rid of the name of boneless chicken wings?

Bryan: Nope. It's a joke. I'm ready.

Mark: No, it's not a joke. You really did this. There's a it's just kind of funny. That's all.

Bryan: Yeah, Brian. I'm liking the hair.

Mark: Oh, look at that. That's awesome.

Brian: Thank you. Very I'm very proud.

Mark: Yeah, is that what all people look like in the Yukon?

Brian: No, this is my own unique Style.

Mark: Okay. It's awesome. Aye aye aye, you know. You're in Canada, right? So I would think of abominable snowman, you know?

Brian: Yeah, but I'm in the nice product, Canada.

Mark: But here he candidates still north.

Brian: right

Mark: And you said you were a few hours north of the US, right?

Brian: Ah, well, I moved further south from

Mark: Okay.

Brian: where I was.

Mark: Well, okay fine you moved.

Brian: Okay, I'm pretty close to the border now.

Mark: It's more about 9:00.

Brian: We could only like. We can snow barely to Canada.

Mark: It's know about ninety percent of Canadians live within 20 miles of u.s. Write something like that.

Brian: Yeah, something like that.

Mark: anyway so Let's see you do. Or drink thing go. Yeah, and I have to say one thing that if I can get this to go off, here we go. I've been really impressed and thankful buying for your help on the support desk. work there and appreciate that. By the way, you're doing a lot of

Brian: What I enjoy doing work best stuff. There's something to you. So to keep my hand in things even though I've kind of like. Not working forward media anymore.

Mark: anyway Or if no one is if there's nothing else going on. Let's see. It's six minutes past. We've given people enough time to arrive. We have people here. Hey Vincent, how's it going? wave

Vincent: What's going on guys?

Mark: Everyone is muted, except me and Vincent Vincent you can take over. Yeah.

Vincent: I could take over. All right. Well y'all want to talk about basketball because I don't have anything before

Brian: skip

Vincent: for y'all right now. It's like my Rockets won recently.

Mark: Yeah, well, you know you can also look around the screen and see who

Vincent: So that's exciting.

Mark: else is not muted like Peter and say Peter can take over we could just do it that way son guys.

Vincent: Oh, so we're playing hot potato.

Mark: No, that's just me being nervous, I guess. By the way, speaking of basketball. What was that game? Recently? I thought Ravens is it Ravens?

Peter: Raptors

Mark: Raptor it was an R. Yeah, but the guy

Brian: skip

Mark: Yeah, but the guy who just takes that three-point shot and walks off. That was pretty cool.

Vincent: Yeah, the buzzer beater.

Mark: Yeah.

Vincent: Yeah, it was pretty crazy.

Mark: Anyway, that that that's all the sports I watch is the highlights. So

Vincent: It's all you need.

Mark: exactly All right, so we have him yesterday Cindy. Well, I think send you as a day before maybe not

Brian: skip

Mark: yesterday Sunday. I think we're doing that yesterday that putting together the news of the month for mediawiki.

Cindy: I think it was yesterday. Yes.

Mark: Yeah, and then ending on that I met

Cindy: Just in time.

Mark: up later with Gary go and he gave me some additional things. So we have the news of the month and then I have a story at the end. I want to tell cuz like Health story So I guess we'll just dive in unless anyone else has stuff. They want to talk about three two one.

Brian: skip

Mark: Okay, we're diving in. There's only a couple more there's only one more week to left a comment about change of the mediawiki logo. So if you really hate the logo or you want something else that happened or whatever your last chance. There's a link there in the on The Ether pad. There's been some good discussion about the deprecation policy

Brian: skip

Mark: And then I guess this affects mostly developers of mediawiki. But yeah there and I noticed Robert vocal good friend good friend of mediawiki stakeholders Robert Vogel posted recently on his about you know, how to Phelps Opinion. Well, I guess it was Hollow velvet. What is Robert vocals opinion about this? He said, you know, as long as we have enough announcements will be fine.

Brian: skip

Mark: Is there anything else that people saw about the deprecation policy they want to talk about? No.

Bryan: I have one question about the logo is that actually going to happen based off of the support and opposition so far for

Mark: I don't I'm you know after I put that item there I was unsure because I saw his initial email was like this is a proposal that I have. Anyone in common, so so I'm unsure if it's definite or if it is just still a proposal and it sounded like you and saying that there's more. Definition here, but you know anything about that send me.

Cindy: Yeah, I was just going to say my understanding is that it is a proposal. He has spoken to the people that he needs to inside the foundation as far as making sure that it's coordinated with the larger Wikimedia brand proposal and you know that it's not overlapping anything that any other groups are doing so the suggested approach was that he go and take this consultation that he is to get people to vote on different proposals. So it's by no means a guarantee. But if there's some consensus around a particular proposal based on the feedback he gets I could imagine that it will go forward.

Mark: so now is a really if you want

Brian: It's important to note that.

Mark: influence the what the logo is going to be now is your chance because I what I am seeing there hasn't been a ton of Reason discussion about the logo there. So

Brian: It's also this is like just the first round. I think it's going into like a runoff voting after this or something.

Cindy: Yeah, I think you're right because there's quite a few proposals initially. Yeah.

Mark: That makes sense. Um

Brian: It seems like the kind of Flowery bp1 and the original logo are the two Runners as far as I can tell.

Mark: now I'm going to have to pull up the list here, which the flowery which one.

Brian: I have to pull up the list the one that kind of looks like the BP logo.

Mark: Oh the BP logo. Yeah.

Brian: like a circle

Mark: I remember that one.

Brian: and if people haven't seen it look at is arrows Joe logo because it's pretty funny. It's collapsed in a comment now.

Bryan: Brian can you post the

Mark: It's in The Ether pad.

Bryan: the link

Mark: the top of the ether pad

Brian: Also for some reason find the logo thing that like most difficult length to find every time I'm looking for it.

Mark: proposal six I think is the one you're talking about. The one that looks like BP, right?

Brian: I I think so. I still haven't found the link yet.

Mark: Yeah anyway.

Brian: Yeah.

Mark: I'd be interested in seeing what happens with that.

Brian: But yeah proposal 29. Is currently in like a discuss a collapse section, but highly recommend looking at that one hilarious.

Mark: Posle 29 what?

Brian: It's in the collapse discussion

Bryan: Yeah, it looks.

Brian: session. You have to like expand the general discussion session first.

Mark: So I'm trying to I still don't I'm sorry. I don't understand that proposal 29. How am I supposed to link on that? Click on that?

Brian: so Like in the section label General discussion, there's a button. labeled show and you have to press that first and then you can go down to it.

Bryan: there's a realizing of like there's a pretty famous cartoon style with like all the characters have really weird ugly as That's what they're going for. But really classic

Mark: Anyway, I don't know I'm happy. I'm going to have to spend some time. Now that now that I've actually looked at that a little bit more. I'm gonna have to spend some more time looking at it. Is anyone else tried me Wiki 135 moving on to the next thing here? I said it up recently and tried to visual editor in core. It's now in court and it seemed it seemed it felt faster to me. So I don't know that's just because I didn't spend all the time setting it up. But yeah, and one thing Ergo mentioned is he mentioned discussion tools, which does not envy Wiki 135 is not going to require any external dependencies because visual editors button bundled into court and he said people should really look at discussion tools. Is anyone else looked at that extension? But he said he said we should look at it. I don't know.

Cindy: wait a discussion tools

Mark: Yeah.

Cindy: is that because I wanted to actually ask people's whether anybody's using structured discussions. But so is this a discussion because you mentioned in context of visual letter? I know that there's after the talk consultation that they're doing work on the just on the talk pages, but I haven't heard of anything referred to as discussion tools.

Mark: This is an extension that lets

Brian: I

Mark: are on thirds the third point the third bullet on The Ether pad, which is

Brian: I think that talk-page consultation is referring to it as discussion tools now.

Mark: right

Cindy: They are calling it.

Brian: On like what?

Cindy: Okay.

Mark: I'm using structured discussions or flow as I call it. That that's I find your flow very useful. So

Cindy: so we are standing up a new Wiki for the Wikipedia API for that anyway, it's called the API portal and we're going to install structured discussions on it. We have been told that it will not be put on any more Wikipedia wikis and they're going to this new, you know, the result of the talk page to consultation, which I had not referred forward to as discussion tools prior, but you know discussion is structured discussions is no longer supported. It's no longer used within the media foundation and at least not supported by the foundation. I don't know what anybody an e third

Brian: but last time

Cindy: party folks have picked up support of

Brian: this is like the fourth time they've

Cindy: it.

Brian: claimed that.

Cindy: so I know. I know and it comes but you know, they seem pretty serious now. and I really not that I love structured discussions. But I certainly love it as an alternative to Wiki text for talk pages.

Mark: So the only the only exposure I have two discussion tools is on the on the repo request page where I saw the links that it created and I couldn't use them because it was Trans cluded in that page evidently. At least I think that's I think it was discussion tools that I received. I'm not sure because I didn't recognize the links.

Brian: Yeah, I definitely haven't tried it yet.

Cindy: So discussion both is packaged as an

Mark: It is.

Cindy: extension. I it's ironic that I'm asking you guys this for something that's work related. But so is it actually packaged as a

Mark: It says it is it is

Cindy: as an extension now?

Mark: link goes to discussion tools.

Cindy: I need to get the ether pad up. I don't have to either pad up right now. So I don't have the link. I'm looking for it.

Mark: in the Yeah, I'm it says there's a replied tool and I think that by Tool does

Cindy: Yes.

Mark: not work at least in the Is this installed on movie wiki dot-org? I think it must be here.

Cindy: No, no, it is not it is it is there's a beta of several. Well, there may be a page that it's enabled on. I found it yesterday. Hold on a second. Let me see if I can find a link again. It is on some wikis as a data.

Brian: Wow, it's really hard to find where

Mark: It is on it is special version shows

Brian: this is like.

Mark: its installed on mediawiki dot-org.

Cindy: discussion tools

Mark: Yeah.

Cindy: Okay, here we go.

Brian: It looks like on Wikipedia is mostly Arabic Dutch French and hungry.

Cindy: I want to right

Mark: So yeah, clicking the discussion link on discussion tools page on the wiki takes you to a flow Arda structured discussions page. So that's a bit confusing.

Brian: It seems like this is kind of like there was a gadget. On what by enterprisee that kind of was a lot like this.

Cindy: Yeah, that link the link to the pat. Yeah, it's no longer fun Okay, Okay.

Mark: G

Cindy: So the link that was at you Brian that just put in the chat.

Brian: You know.

Cindy: under 28, August 2020 about halfway down is as you can try the prototype by visiting this page and it's patch demo, which the wmflabs.org that is. The one that I was using yesterday that worked beautifully and it no longer works. But basically it looks like an old style Wiki text talk page with a with the few little you know, it has a little Link in text. It says Reply and you can click on the reply.

Mark: Right. That's what I thought which is it shows the conservative nature of Wikipedia that no one wants to change too much. This is this it's regressing back. So we're not these structured discussions was too much of a change. This is you know, the check step back and said, okay, how about this change?

Cindy: It's very 20th century.

Mark: Yeah.

Brian: It's kind of about time people realize that structure discussions has failed and it's like not going to happen. to. No matter how much they might want it

Cindy: Yeah.

Mark: Could y'all go on and continue talking while I find my cord for my headphones? I'm having trouble hearing people. You're actually supposed to talk now.

Brian: so like there was this gadget. By Enterprise which was kind of popular and was Wikipedia. and to me this looks like kind of a copy of this just using slightly different UI, which doesn't based on the speed stress doesn't even look like although probably

Mark: No, I had.

Brian: better

Mark: Yeah. Now I have my headphones on and realize that Brian was just mumbling. anyway Sorry G Zia. So you're the person who said something about these pingback statistics, so I need you have anything to say about those comments. I looked at him real quick and I saw nice Jaggi lines.

Cindy: yes, so in fact, I was just working on it to get the to make sure here let me I'm gonna share my screen. So that people can actually see what I'm talking about. that Can you guys?

Mark: Yeah.

Cindy: See Okay cool. So if you go to pingback.wmflabs.org. So history since sometime in 2017, there's been an ability to opt in to pingback statistics in media Wiki and the Fatal flaw with the first deployment of that capability was the fact that once a particular installation had pinged pong once they'd sent out a ping back it would never go away. so when meeting Wiki went up 31 was in and so that's all those lines you see up until you know late 2018 the statistics for particular media Wiki versions was just going up and up and up but we didn't know if those were real versions or you know, real active installations or with something that somebody just installed once and then, you know killed so with one to 31 monthly heartbeat beat a heartbeat ping was introduced and so at that point every month active installs would continue to Ping to say that they were still alive but this dashboard showing the pingback results was never updated to reflect that to discard sites that had not pinged back within the last 30 days.

Brian: skip

Cindy: So then sometime around December the event analytics infrastructure. This was built on was upgraded and the It broke the pingbacks. It was migrated from MySQL to Hive and things broke. So finally this was updated to make it usable again and to incorporate the heartbeat ping. And so you can see from the statistics after the heartbeat ping was introduced and forward. That you can see the different media Wiki versions as they were Incorporated adoption and then as the next release was introduced. The numbers would go down. You can see 1.31 which is the last

Brian: skip

Cindy: LTS release. It's it was introduced and it gained popularity it fell off a little bit once 1.32 was introduced. But since it's an LTS, lots of people still stuck with it, and so 132 is introduced 133 134 and the dotted vertical lines represent when when major minor or security releases were

Brian: skip

Cindy: introduced so you can start to see that those some of the cliffs and the rising of a new version correspond to when new releases were. Introduced so you can look at this the unique Wiki count the you know, which is how many actual live installations are there over time and you can see that it's growing and it's currently at about 20,000. You can look at it with respect to

Brian: skip

Cindy: Media Wiki version. The database type which is by far. My my SQL is the Most used database PHP version which is sort of all over the place, but you can see that there's most people at this most installations at this point are using 7.2 followed. relatively closely by 7.3 as far as operating is system is concerned Linux is way up there most or Linux followed. Quite distantly by windows and everything else.

Brian: skip

Cindy: Most people are running on a 64-bit architecture, but there's still a bunch on 32. lots of people running on Intel x8664 most people are running on Apache followed distantly by nginx. And the last one is the memory how much memory they're using?

Brian: skip

Cindy: Just so at any rate just introducing that so you can see. that we've got some interesting statistics that show at least for those media installations that are actually pinging that have that enabled. you can get a sense of What's going on? Who's using? What?

Mark: Bryan: But they feel a lot better. I remember Cindy we talked about but when I was looking at that data

Brian: skip

Bryan: originally I just it was super super linear and it made no sense. It was like perfect. They

Cindy: Yeah, this looks a lot more realistic, you know the fact that you can see that when when a new media Wiki version is released that the other that the previous versions their usage falls off. You can see however that one.31 which is the last LTS fell off only to an extent one.31 and one dot one to 31

Brian: skip

Cindy: definitely has less installations than one dot 31 at this point. I'm not sure if I said that right window 31 one at 32 is less than 1.31 and it looks like 1.33 is running about level and most of the installations at this point or the one with the highest number of Sites is 1.34. But you can just start to begin to see with the release of the 1.35 release candidates that. That that will start Rising.

Mark: so I have a question about this

Brian: skip

Mark: because it's interesting to me that the Peaks for 31 and 32 and 33 are you know, there's similar Heights but the peak 434 shoots up any idea why

Cindy: Yeah.

Mark: that might be

Cindy: Nope, do not know why. Because we've been getting the word

Mark: I mean that

Cindy: out. I don't know.

Mark: It's a success. Yes. We should take credit for this.

Brian: skip

Mark: It's me with key stakeholders.

Cindy: Absolutely. And so we project out six months. You'll see one.35 will be like way up

Mark: Yeah, especially especially with the

Cindy: there. Yeah.

Mark: visual editor embedded which is so easy to use now.

Cindy: Yeah.

Mark: That'll really help.

Cindy: And and it'll be interested to see what the new LTS what what the release of 1.35 does to the 1 to 31 statistics?

Mark: Yeah, well, I remember them starting,

Cindy: so

Mark: you know the pain back and it looks

Brian: skip

Mark: like this is you know, it's nice to have so many years of data, which I guess it's only three, but, you know

Cindy: yes.

Mark: nevertheless it's nice to have so many years of data.

Cindy: Yeah. And it's really only two years if you consider the fact that anything that was before late October or you know late 2018. We don't really know since since that heartbeat ping was introduced in 1.31. You can see here this little green line it which is 1.30. That's people who are still like even though one to 31 has been released. There's people who are still installing. one dot 30 but that eventually goes down but not necessarily because people are no longer using it but it's not it's not pinging back. You don't have that heartbeat paying and so The way this is working is that those things are discarded. If you know since they haven't just they haven't reported within a month.

Mark: Yeah, this is.

Cindy: So this probably still older versions We Know You Know by bug reports you see in fabricator with people trying to upgrade from 1.6. You know that there are still people out there that are using older versions.

Mark: This is very this is a very I love visualisations. I'm no good at them. But I love how they help people see stuff.

Cindy: Yep.

Mark: And I'm going to ping you again here on this because I don't know anything about developer portal. I know that that's something that was talked about, but I don't know anything about it.

Cindy: I don't really know much about it either aside from the announcement that went out. Do you have a A link to it. I still haven't found the ether pad because I got distracted when I was looking for it. Can somebody drop a link to the either pad and they chat? Thank you. Okay. So yeah, so the developer advocacy. group is creating a development or I'm sorry a developer portal, which is different from the API portal that I was talking about before that is specifically for Usage of apis and registering oauth clients for API usage. So this developer portal as I understand it and this is just from having read. The link that's in the either pad. Which I will drop a link. Into the chat in case there are other people like me who didn't have the either pad open before? so the idea is is having a portal that's different from the main page of mediawiki.org for folks to come in and have You know, basically it would be a Clearinghouse of links to other places probably within media wiki.org, but perhaps with other play to other wikis such as wikitech that

Mark: I like the second quote on that page

Cindy: would support developers in their usage of media Wiki.

Mark: mediawiki documentation is not only

Cindy: and development with media Wiki

Mark: in famously incomplete but also terribly scattered. Nothing truer has been written.

Cindy: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, so this would not be an effort to completely rewrite or replace what's on mediawiki.org for documentation, but instead a portal and an entry point to come in that would point you to the appropriate places in order to get answers to questions that you have. so

Mark: Related to this. It looks like the experiment with discourses over. Is that right? Because they're taking that down.

Cindy: yeah.

Mark: which

Cindy: As far as I can go.

Mark: No, no. No, I mean that's what that's what they post on Wiki Tech I guess today or yesterday so

Cindy: I was at that recent. Okay, because I've heard I heard discussion about it, but I did not see. that

Mark: right

Cindy: I had heard it was going to happen.

Mark: um

Cindy: I didn't know it was actually announced.

Mark: Yeah, well it was so it is there the next item is kind of interesting because PHP 7 to support is being dropped. Is that going back to the pingback step statistics? I guess that's what I want to look at here. Is there anyone who's running how many people are running seven to that's why I wanted.

Cindy: according to pingback 7.2 is the most used followed closely by 7.3 but I'd imagine you'll see those

Mark: Let's see.

Cindy: statistics change. However, if they go ahead and drop support.

Mark: So I just took off all the on that on that pingback data chart, you can take off all the you know, the link the lines. You don't want to see so I took all so took off seven one and lower and 7/2 is the last version that has that spike in it. So that's interesting to me that there's a correlation between the fix for pingback and seven to I believe seven. Who is being gol this is that correct by the PHP Foundation?

Cindy: That's my understanding that that was the motivation for stopping support for it by moving to 7.3.

Mark: I mean, so that's a good reason to go along with it then as yeah.

Cindy: Yeah.

Mark: As much as I as much as I like supporting old things and I do trust me it gets to be burdensome. There's a speaking of supporting old things. There's a guy at Microsoft whose job was to make sure that all the Legacy costs stuff still work in Windows for I forget his name our but anyway, it was it was really interesting some of the things he had to do. Anyway, that's another story. I won't be distracted. The let's see. So they're couple more and I'm going to try to run through the last few of these so I can tell my story that I have planned here. By the way, Peter, did you get a haircut?

Peter: not an official haircut

Mark: Okay. Okay. I'm just I'm just noticing that your hair looks a little bit more trim. That's all.

Peter: I wish I could look like Brian wolf but it's too irritating for me. And I can't I'm no longer even biologically able to look like that. So what I got is more like an open source haircut, let's put it that way. And I'm turning off my camera now.

Cindy: You made him felt self-conscious.

Mark: No, really, you're beautiful. I was just sorry. Yeah, let's see as so yeah, like I said and tried to run through the rest of these are the others. There's a discussion about stopping unstopping the support for single step upgrades. In other words. I've tried to upgrade from older versions like And it his work relatively. Well, so they're they're saying now that I guess is going to mean they're going to take all the database migrations out of out of movie wiki. Is that right Cindy?

Cindy: Actually, I had not heard this discussion. I'm learning all sorts of stuff today. So I again I had heard. You know that there was some.

Mark: Right eye.

Cindy: Discussion about potentially doing this. I didn't hear that. It was actually moving forward.

Mark: I remember scenes. I was looking for this link yesterday and couldn't find it on on Wiki Tech, but I do remember reading about you know. Dropping support for these major, you know if you're upgrading from 116 or whatever, we're not just going to continue to make that work seamlessly, which I think would be that's a matter of dropping to the database migrations, which I can see that.

Cindy: well Single step so you would have to upgrade like the those migrations maintenance scripts. Oh I see but they would be dropped from 1.30 for from the last one.

Mark: Right, right.

Cindy: They'd still if you downloaded the old versions, obviously then still be there because they were sport get so you could do so you'd have if you

Mark: I actually think I think that one I

Cindy: were trying to go from 1.27 to 1.35

Mark: think if I recall the discussion, I think that was they were saying LTS

Cindy: you'd have to do 1.28 129 130 and so

Mark: versions so you can go 127 131.

Cindy: on. 141 135 yeah.

Mark: Yeah, although 127 to 135 kind of works. So anyway. Consultation about switching from Garrett to get lab, which I think people like the GitHub workflow would really appreciate. There's a mediawiki user survey going on nothing because there in The Ether pad.

Cindy: Is that your own survey?

Mark: I don't know that I just know that I so I guess I guess I'll put the link in C, but I don't think it is. I mean, maybe maybe oh, yes, it is run by professional Wiki

Cindy: Okay. Okay, because I saw the banner ad on mediawiki.org this morning. I had not noticed it before but the interesting thing is all the banner ad says is that there's a survey going on but it doesn't say how you answer. How do you like it does it's not a clickable link. At least it wasn't for me.

Mark: Okay. Yeah, so there it is. Maybe if we can find that Banner ad we can fix the fix it. So there's actually a link because it seemed not to be useful without a

Cindy: Yeah, exactly.

Mark: link. Universal code of conduct only going to oh, this is something gear go pointed out to me. The only link I found was on meta which is where they're talking about a universal code of conduct for all Wikimedia. Areas, which would affect now third parties as well. So If we want to interact with Wikimedia. anyway That that's all the all the update stuff that I have now, I get to tell my story. I'm sorry. I'm good. The only person I can see right now is Cindy. So I'm looking at her face and kind of going I mean I saw her, you know kind of like oh God.

Cindy: No, it wasn't that at all. It was that I happened to glance over to my other monitor and saw something so I was not reacting to me.

Mark: Well, I'm I'm sorry. I really I was describing motives and emotions to you that we're not there and I'm sorry for that. I should just I should speak plainly and straightforward anyway, so there's this extension magic numbered headings which was on Was on mediawiki dot-org and it had you know, like some of these older extensions do it had the code for the extension on media wiki page itself. I saw that and I wanted to use it and I didn't want to use the code on the page. So I put in a GitHub repo went away and but I didn't update the page. On a media Wiki dot-org this other user actually requested the creation of a Garret repo for I don't know how to say his name. But anyway, he's a German guy and he um, does anyone speak German? No one here. Mister um, so um

Cindy: So we won't know if you're saying it wrong.

Mark: No, it's mr. Um, that's correct. I'm sorry, it should be my stir up anyway. He had created he and requested again tree poem and imported my work into the Garret repo. I think he imported my work at least it looked like he did anyway, and then but he didn't update mediawiki dot-org either as a result later Carson comes along and he sees oh this is not been updated doesn't work with he uses a code on the wiki Itself, and he says oh this doesn't work with current media Wiki, so it should be you know, we should archivist so we archived it on mediawiki dot-org the archive the page and then the cleanup crew for Garrett came along and said, oh look this are this extension has been archived on mediawiki dot-org even though the extension in Garrett had been updated. And so they are captured on in Garrett. So then this past week when I went to look for I saw that it had been deleted from Garrett. I was like Anyway, this is all a little morality tale to tell you to keep mediawiki dot-org up-to-date. So do your part. Anyway, I'm sorry. I do not have more flashy Graphics anything to give you but that is that is my story. So that's all we have for today folks. There anything else people want to talk about?

Bryan: What are the extension actually?

Mark: I think I haven't been home now.

Cindy: Brian was just saying something wait.

Bryan: I think he got dumped and I just realized it might have been Mark's connection that was doing all the noise

Cindy: Yep is now it sounds wonderful.

Bryan: I hear no noise now. Yeah.

Cindy: Now we can actually hear each other. Oh, man. Oh.

Bryan: is that

Peter: Yeah, let me.

Cindy: It seems better this time. Peter you were gonna say something

Peter: I thought it was going to be hard to install a media Wiki with Cargo in a new place, but I had I had a giant. Cargo media Wiki on referrata which has been running slower and slower for reasons. We don't understand. As advised to move it to a new place. I thought that was going to be difficult. I got encouragement from your own and from Brian Hildebrand, and I just want to say, thanks. Now my my colleague and I am himself bringing you into the cargo and research project. Just continuing.

Cindy: That's fabulous.

Peter: That's a success. That's it.

Bryan: hearing

Peter: Sorry, what's that?

Cindy: We can't hear over mark.

Bryan: more

Cindy: Is fan and I can see his locks

Peter: Mark continued

Cindy: blowing in the wind. So it's clearly the fan. Yeah. There we go. Now we can hear each other.

Bryan: It's running. Well now Peter.

Peter: yeah Speedy. We had trouble installing the images a bunch of that had to be done by hand. They didn't they didn't come over right the first time. So we're uploading them a new. And it's a bunch of work, but it's it's doable. The main content went in right?

Bryan: There's a there's a well I guess. You're talking about moving the images that were stored in referrada over.

Peter: both the image files and the the connection the the image pages that link to the file, but they didn't come in, right? So I think there's bugs in that system, but I don't want to get into it. You know, well, we could improve that over time. We want to be good at backing up and moving wikis, and I know many of you on this call are so I don't want to get into the details.

Bryan: Well interestingly I oh it's just popped up. I thought it was broken, but I was trying to get on referrada yesterday and it and it wasn't connecting and then I'm doing it now and it looks like it still actually hasn't popped up, but it seems to be

Peter: Right. It's it's practically ground to a

Bryan: trying

Peter: halt. It will usually connect but very slowly and response is very slow to any any query or question. No matter how easy so it doesn't seem to be that the processing is slow. It's some kind of latency in the connection. And your own has tried and can't figure it out and it has to do with this new ISP. I'm not sure he's committed to continuing it. But anyway, it was

Cindy: So is it all of referrada? That's ground to a halt or okay, well.

Mark: Did he did he switch?

Peter: So we moved it and performance is unusable for our purposes. fine on another system.

Mark: Did he switch to Shared hosting

Cindy: Okay.

Peter: It's still classically.

Mark: Is that way again?

Peter: It's unusable sometimes and it's just slow sometimes.

Bryan: I mean it I would as soon as Peter

Peter: I don't I don't know the details.

Bryan: started talking about referratas and him switching. I remembered I had tried to connect yesterday and it just popped up so it From the time he first mentioned the word referrada.

Peter: Yeah.

Bryan: I typed it in and it's been loading and just now when I said it it it

Peter: It's not buggy. It's slow.

Bryan: popped.

Peter: So that's my report. We can move along.

Bryan: At a curiosity. How did you how did you get all your images out if you didn't have access to the server is there?

Peter: You're around your own zip them into one file.

Bryan: A oh, okay. there's a couple of maintenance scripts that you can use to load those into your your Wiki and I think you're supposed to do the file Pages first. I'll see if I can find it, you know about it already.

Peter: If my guy says he did all that correctly and the image paid his first they didn't appear and then they were hidden but appeared somehow. No, I don't know the details, but he did run various updates Scripts. or image installing Scripts

Bryan: Well, I mean if you got a guy that's

Peter: It may be that some better diagnosis.

Bryan: doing this then I wouldn't worry

Peter: Should be in the system somewhere, but we're just going.

Bryan: about it. You can just keep having your guy work on it until then.

Peter: Everything so much better when you've got a guy who's doing it? Yes.

Mark: I should get a guy.

Peter: Okay.

Mark: actually, actually I'm first of all

Peter: Yeah.

Mark: is that is there still a lot of noise?

Cindy: That's better.

Peter: No, it's better.

Mark: Okay, actually, I think just looking at what your are in has been doing with page forms and other things I think he has ended up getting a guy to maintain page forms. So, you know anyway. I'm just I

Bryan: That reminds me. He's got two interesting new extensions. That might be worth checking out. One is I think we talked about our Ike presented page exchange and the other is flex diagrams. Page exchanges the one that you can

Cindy: Excuse me.

Bryan: like create kind of like a repository for forms and templates and stuff and then import it to a Wiki easily. and then Flex diagrams uses you can do like mermaid. A Gantt chart and bpmn and the latter two has like a visual editor portion to it, which is kind of cool.

Mark: yeah, I remember him talking about the oh, that's right. I should I should install that and check it out because yeah, it would be nice to have a way to edit on the wiki. Do we have any buzzer-beaters here? You know three point shots.

Peter: last minute items news items

Mark: Yeah. Right. Sure sure. I'm just trying to wrap back to the beginning where you know Vincent and I were talking about you know, I was showing my basketball knowledge.

Peter: a combat

Mark: Yeah.

Vincent: like it

Peter: compacts

Bryan: I am going to type.

Mark: Oh my God.

Peter: I prepared for this meeting.

Bryan: if if you guys are interested in one of the Tinker with it, here's a the editing sample for BP and N which I always have a hard time with that acronym. And then Gantt charts. and mermaid, I haven't installed it on any of my wikis yet. but you can check it out there.

Cindy: Well, that's pretty.

Mark: Yeah, I mean shoot I'm gonna have to check that out today.

Bryan: So what?

Mark: Thank you.

Bryan: One thing I found really interesting. Is he I asked if you could use some form of structured data semantic media Wiki or cargo to create some of this and he said no, but I don't I can't see especially on mermaid. Why why not? I think you could. I mean you might have to use Lua to do it but as long as the page has this content and it seems like it would render appropriately.

Cindy: What was your what was your question again that he said you couldn't do.

Bryan: We'll use data structured data. So let's say you had for example, maybe like, you know an org chart or something that you kind of already had cargo or semantic media Wiki. Can I just use that clean it up for example in Lua and then, you know have a representation of that org chart automatically created and it I can't see why not but he was saying no.

Cindy: Really, huh?

Mark: and that and that

Bryan: Oh. he said no and then I asked I was like are you sure like, I think you could do this things like well, I

Mark: I love cheese now.

Bryan: guess I've never tried maybe you

Mark: I have a way to make diagrams where I

Bryan: could so.

Mark: I have a way to make diagrams where I have not wanted you this before, you

Bryan: I think I think he can.

Mark: know, I'm open up Vizio or something. So now I have a way to do it. This is cool.

Bryan: Yeah, the you know, the mermaid thing is super cool. But like I would say most normal. Enterprise Wiki users wouldn't be writing in the code to generate the The graphics but but the btmn is just visually, you know edited super easy.

Mark: Yeah.

Bryan: So yeah.

Mark: Excellent, I thank you. Thank you. That that was a great buzzer beater. I love it that that is like the three-point shot and and then yeah.

Cindy: Absolutely. And is that in a released version of what is it? It's is it is an extension to mermaid?

Bryan: No, it's it's one extension here. I'll type that in. It's it's called Flex diagrams But it includes all three.

Cindy: Okay.

Peter: M.

Mark: Yeah, when?

Peter: life rational on a Gantt chart that It doesn't seem like that in in life, but it does look good.

Bryan: Yeah, there's something I found about like. I was tinkering with it if you added a item that's kind of way off in the future. The The View doesn't resize correctly and you kind of have to like Drag out to that one kind of drag it into your frame and then double click and then just, you know blank save it and it redis it. But but otherwise, I mean, it's pretty cool. And that's another one where I think if you could start adding content, you know from structured data. You could add some pretty cool functionality to Awakening. You have like tasks and everything else that we're starting to be loaded in there.

Cindy: Yeah, now if you could use this to edit and create the chart and then save it as structured data to your Wiki either. Cargo semantic media Wiki or even my hope is someday MCR within media Wiki itself will be useful for stuff like that. And this would just be the editor and you would just save into a slot all the information needed to render the

Bryan: So in multi-content something

Cindy: graph. That would be amazing. Revisions. Yeah, so a page in the wiki could have multiple slots right now. Most Pages have a single slot which is the main slot which is a Wiki text slot although different. Pages in different names spaces could have different content models. So forget example JavaScript or you know other content models, but still a single slot MCR the storage model of which the storage layer is already implemented in core allows you to have other slots on a single page so you can have a Wiki text slot that would have, you know, the informational piece and then you could have a slot that's stored for example the data for a bpmn chart for that.

Bryan: and so

Cindy: In a separate slot in Json or something.

Bryan: what that functionally look like for the user. It was just like multiple edit sections or

Cindy: It could they could be like the that functionality that's that's where the big stumbling block is is they're looking for the killer app to cause them to actually implement the editing portion of it, but the idea would be that if you click on, you know, the wiki text portion of it and say you want to edit you would edit and Wiki text editor and if you clicked on the chart, it would be

Mark: Anyway, well we need to go anyway,

Cindy: another I'm sorry. Hold on. I need my son's calling me.

Mark: it's in the time so, you know, that was a serendipitous call. Thanks a lot. You're in thank you Brian for introducing that that extension. That's awesome. So

Bryan: Well, I'm we have your own Thunder. I mean, I'm just letting people know. But yeah, I'll take that

Mark: All right.

Peter: Yes.

Bryan: buzzer beater.

Mark: Talk to you all later.

Bryan: alright

Mark: Good to see you Vincent, bye-bye.

Vincent: Likewise you ever going.