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| '''Cindy:''' raise the conversation that we just had at the board meeting which I can start so I raised the issue that I have concern. That MW James his last commitment to semantic media Wiki was May 10th, and I know Karsten has reached out to him and he hasn't responded.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' You ruined it all I know has. sort of taken the lead as far as you know, trying to keep things moving, but you know, I spoke to him and you know, he's only got so much time and resources and you know that the reason I It became more of an interest to me recently. Of course, you know, I I have a soft spot in my heart for semantic midi Wiki so that you know that goes without saying but also we're making some changes to core that we're going out and adapting to extensions that make use of the functionality that we need to get some updates and right now it seems like you know, it's all of the semantic media Wiki tests are failing for a reason unrelated to the patch that I submitted. I also had some questions about the code and you ruined the door doesn't have the time to delve into is does not have familiarity with the parts of the code that I was asking about. So at any rate, I'm concerned about the future. I know there are a lot of people who base their their businesses upon the software and and it's great software and it would be really a shame to see you know, and with the continuing movement of media Wiki, you know, all extensions need to continue to you know adapt and you know have be Vibrant and you know have you one of the issues with semantic media? We can't see in the last years. It has been that it's been primarily maintained by one person and hasn't had a real vibrant volunteer developer community. And so I'm wondering, you know since semantic media Wiki is the largest gathering of folks who are interested and I know there's a big Wiki pace. Contingent, you know at the conference which I think is great. But you know, it is still nominally about semantic media Wiki and a lot of the talks are about semantic media Wiki. It seems like it would be the ideal venue to sort of come together and Come up with a plan for the future of semantic media Wiki because I think it desperately needs. You know more more Developers. As well as you know. It would be great to see you run to have more support and being able to. Lead it and plan its Evolution forward.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah. yeah, it's It's it's very. It's very sad actually also on the personal level because I have to have the impression that it's not really good news. MW James used to from time to time write me a personal email on something he found on
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| '''Cindy:''' Oh.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Twitter or so. Not very often and I also reached out to him actually because I said, you know, if we if we're doing this this conference our digitally he could to the talk without being visible.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Or maybe some pre-recorded thing and if you would be interested in that and there was no reaction and then I don't know. I think it's just two weeks ago. I wrote him please just give me some sign of of anything. Even if you moved away from semantic video. He doesn't really matter.
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| '''Cindy:''' Are you okay?
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| '''Bernhard:''' But they're still there.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah, but there's still no reactions. I have to feeling he might be I don't know in prison or dead or I don't know what because you you would not
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| '''Cindy:''' Well, that's right. Yeah.
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| '''Bernhard:''' would not, you know, leave everything and and drop everything just like that and not even say, you know, hi. I just moved on to something
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| '''Cindy:''' just
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| '''Bernhard:''' different and I'm I'm not coming back and you know, just don't bother me again. So something like that.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah, that that's what I wrote to you ruin as well. I was very concerned. You know, I I I don't know that he was in Hong Kong but that was the you know, what I had heard was that he was living in Hong Kong and I know there was a great deal of unrest there between that and coronavirus and just everything in the world.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' My bigger concern is yeah, you know, I don't think he would have just walked away.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' So I agree. I you know on a personal level, you know, now I didn't have any personal interaction with him like that. but
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| '''Bernhard:''' yeah, so it's it's really it's really
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| '''Cindy:''' it's that.
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| '''Bernhard:''' sad and it is also for the software. I think I mean MW James has tried to to bring desperately I would say between the last two years trying to bring new new developers on board. And I mean there might be a thing to to reasons why it didn't happen and I'm an optimist. So I hope that the optimistical reason is true. I mean actually both both reasons are true. I mean semantic metability has has it is old. Right, so it doesn't have for example the attention that it had in Academia. This is one one reason but I think it's not obsolete. I mean and many people that in our community know that they base their businesses on it and so forth. and the other reason I think is It worked so well, I mean you wouldn't have to to to care about semantic metabeeky core because MW James did also perfectly and so fast and I mean nobody had for example, I don't know Marcus the other can can say something about it. But I know from from Alexander Kissimmee, I mean he didn't have to care about CMW core because it was all perfect.
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| '''Markus:''' Yep.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Bernhard:''' So that makes me optimistic that if we realize that your own cannot do this alone and and there are others who are If not capable, maybe at least very much interested in providing some funding for that or I don't know we there will be some kind of a solution I guess. Or that I mean there are there has to be some kind of solution. We cannot expect for MW change to come back. So we need to move on I totally agree. So let's let's do a session at smw.com. Maybe some kind of I don't know panel discussion.
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| '''Markus:''' Yeah, that's that's what we were
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| '''Bernhard:''' for
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| '''Markus:''' going to suspect as a suggest so something like the
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| '''Bernhard:''' you know, yeah.
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| '''Markus:''' bringing up the the sustainability of somatinemia, you know as you probably
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Markus:''' all know. This is something that has to be handled with care. So if we create too much too many doubts about smw being developed in the future, then people might just jump off. trip
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| '''Cindy:''' right
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| '''Markus:''' of somewhere and but I think we need to raise this also to maybe maybe there are people who want to have the opportunity of onboarding onto this somehow so Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' I so I you know, I I kind of go back to what Lex was saying here earlier, you know that we We talk a lot about this but it you really have to have some concrete thing to show for it. So, you know having a panel discussion would be more talk. What would be what would we aim for is to be the concrete outcome of
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| '''Cindy:''' '''Mark:''' that?
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| '''Bryan:''' Well one one thing just about you know. How all the gears can end up working is if we're talking about payment and collecting payment as worth being out with MW State? It's not. Not trivial, right? that it requires a little bit of work to get right and we're undergoing that right now would it doesn't make sense to have the mistake number of payment If things were to move forward. where you know any money would be selected and then from Or is it more just pain, you know the Run directly or a New Foundation or how would that work?
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| '''Mark:''' I think it's reasonable to say hey mediwiki stakeholders can coordinate between say hello Vail Alexander cousin Bernard and all these people who want to contribute and have a single point where the money can go and then go out to the different group of developers. I think that makes sense and you're right. It does take organization and work to do that. Um, Is that what we're going to talk about though in the smw account? Because we need we need two things. We need people who are kind of come up with the money and we need people who are gonna do the work.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' and really that that's as far as a panel discussion, that's what we need, you know, just money and work and what I understand that. Anyway, I I think that's it's clear that that's what's needed. I just don't know how to get there exactly.
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| '''Lex:''' Well, I think you know just home into the crucial questions. The first one is who is qualified or is at the top of the short list of potential developers being able to take this over. Right now, I think it's your own, right? And he would also already be within a corporate fabric you mean I mean an Institute, you know, it's it's it's a body it's a legal body where you can see money so that if he's at the top
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| '''Mark:''' right
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| '''Lex:''' of the list, the only question now is is he willing to do this and if yes, what does he require as your remuneration? If he says well x amount then we have to Lobby around the people that use it and I would prepare everything before the conference the answers to this question. And then the talk is not a panel discussion about the future. The the panel is a lobbying. It's a it's a campaign. It's a rally. Right. It's a rally where we did nothing to discuss there. The only thing that we advertise as
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| '''Cindy:''' you
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| '''Lex:''' the single item agenda item is your own. I mean, I'm now this is amongst us.
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| '''Cindy:''' know
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| '''Lex:''' not that you know, it goes out that we decide on him, but I just as a model line now your own will take over development of semantic media. We keep maintenance for this amount of money. We need this amount of money per year. And this session is about pledging money to this cause and if you have any issues being convinced of the validity necessity and plausibility of such a step well then tune in and we're gonna advocate for this. That's it because if you start if you start a session about it, they will I guarantee you there will nothing will happen. it's just
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' so
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' I totally agree that we need to go talk to your own then the next step
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| '''Cindy:''' Yes.
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| '''Lex:''' that that's the parts that right.
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| '''Mark:''' here is talk to your room. Right exactly exactly.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah, absolutely. And I know karsten's giving a talk on the future semantic media Wiki, which we should also probably not Blindside Karsten with us and since he and you ruin our business partners.
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| '''Lex:''' No, he should drive this right?
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah, I agree.
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| '''Lex:''' That's it.
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| '''Mark:''' so
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| '''Lex:''' Yeah, it's very given the fact that he he's willing to do is that there's only one question how much money and what are the potential parties being able to come up with that money?
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| '''Bernhard:''' well, yeah, but
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| '''Mark:''' so who is gonna talk to them?
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| '''Bernhard:''' I can I can talk to him. That's that's no problem. But there is I mean, I I agree also that it should not be some kind of open discussion but more a really Something that we prepare where we say listen companies if you want to to donate and you have and you will have to donate to to the to programming tasks with semantic media Wicket and here is here is where you can do it. I think this would be important. But you have to bear in mind that your own is already the maintain of semantic media Wiki. So he's technically also so and he's continuing this the problem is that he has to do paid work first and he's willing to do voluntary work.
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| '''Cindy:''' Sure.
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| '''Bernhard:''' So it's not so easy to make this paid on a regular basis because you know, It would be better to say. Okay, for example. The maintenance necessary that it runs smoothly with media Wiki 1.35. This is some this is a task for the task. We need money and then you should do it for the money. And then it this is the task not something else and and there might be other tasks. For example, I remember. That on GitHub somewhere MW James proposed and actually showed but it was only on his Wiki the kind of semantic search that we all hoping for for several years. So we had something like and if you say this task is really needed in semantic media Wiki that we have the semantic search finally. Then it is your own can say this is going to cost us 2,000 Euros or dollars and then we we will fund this but for a regular maintenance or whatever, I mean, how would you find it? Because I as in kdz I can maybe come up with with some money, but I cannot say we gonna we're gonna found so and so much each month. This is not possible for me. So I think it has to be a task related and we have a task at hand that is important, you know, so make all running again and discuss should be found that this is the one effect. I wanted to mention and the other is you you will find developers you you cannot motivate with money. I actually also asked MW James.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Bernhard:''' I told him, you know, I from time to time I can come up with money. I will even interested because I never asked you you or doing this voluntary. Please tell me if you would be possible for you to My money or something we didn't react to that either. So I don't know but there are people who cannot be motivated by money. They just will so you have this onboarding process maybe of new students coming out of some University who are really capable and you need this onboarding without money attached because they will not be interested in that maybe yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' I think you're the third that I've
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| '''Mark:''' so
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| '''Cindy:''' heard that is offered that offered him money that he just didn't respond
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| '''Mark:''' Yeah, I also did and he never heard
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| '''Cindy:''' to.
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| '''Mark:''' back from him about that. I heard from about other things so he didn't completely shut me out. Just never the money.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' Um Anyway, um, I so I want to be really clear here about you said you're you're willing to talk to them. Oh what? But at the same time you mentioned having a task based, you know system I think. There is I think you know, what you said about tax base is reasonable because it's easy to have concrete things to say. Okay, you know I'm paying for X instead of you know. giving money every month, but I think that there does need to be I I think there's also a way some people who would be willing to pay money a month just to maintain just to keep things going. Um, and I think that that should also be an option. It makes it more complex. Are we talking about then? Because because they're both in professional Wiki are we talking then about you know setting up professional dot Wiki is the is the people who would do this? I mean, I think that's what they
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| '''Cindy:''' if they're willing to
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| '''Mark:''' would say.
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| '''Markus:''' Well, I'd suggest ask them.
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| '''Cindy:''' yeah.
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| '''Markus:''' I mean get their opinion first. Actually, of course, that's what they would say. No, I don't I don't think that's very natural. I mean they want to make their money with setting up wikis for people so having that's also by the way something I want to throw in and your own might not be willing to spend like most of his time on maintaining so much media key because he has a business which he wants to start up basically so that is as most of you are already,
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah, yeah.
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| '''Markus:''' you know, that is a very time consuming and energy intense process. So, I don't know I think talk to we need to talk to them first and and see what's I mean from a money perspective. It would be easier to pay a single developer than a company. That's also not easier but cheaper. That's also our point.
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| '''Mark:''' But it but again we're the single point in failure then. Um, so Bernard if I can go back to you. What what are you going to be talking to him about we've talked about this, but I want to make sure I have a good
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' understanding what you're going to talk to him about.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah, well first I would I would try to talk to Carson and Elena at the same time to to ask them because I have had your emails with your own mentioning that at least Carson should mention the problem of MW chain James because the community has a right to know because some people might not be aware. I mean we have to be careful. I understand, you know, you should
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| '''Cindy:''' No.
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| '''Bernhard:''' not make people afraid. But should be some mentioning that I don't know. This is a transitional phase or whatever and we need to so sort of the first question is how are they gonna address the topic and the second part is that I would say that the MW stakeholders want to do a promotional session for for combining efforts on a trying to fund development or also maintenance and if they and if what are the ideas on how to do that best and be on how to onboard new new developers and I think it is to these two tasks are both equally important. For the for the funding. I think Iran has been very active because you can on on GitHub you can click and you can click support him already. Because nobody's doing it because you know, you don't get a fixed result. You don't you don't know what you're funding it exactly. So I would talk to him about what is what is what are his ideas on on this? And and if he's really interested in, you know being paid for for the maintenance of semantic media Wiki, I think that he is I think that that he
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| '''Cindy:''' in
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| '''Bernhard:''' wants to do paid work and I think just but as only my personal opinion that you will he would rather get money for maintenance of semantic leader Ricky core. Then to get some money for some Wiki for some projects anywhere. I mean this is what he has to do to to make a living maybe but if we can offer him at least parts of some kind of regular income from core maintenance, I think you will be probably very fine with that. But it's only my personal impression.
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| '''Bryan:''' So for just some bullet points here. Number one is just you know the idea about money. You know, how much is it gonna cost for average normal yearly maintenance and then kind of upgrades right? What what how much time that looks like and who might be involved another bullet point is kind of timeline. One of the timeline points might be the upgrade to 1.35 and and how important anything is. And another is planning for the future. So not only involving or you know, trying to point the finger at one person your own but trying to gain a developer Community behind it. Another point that markets brought up is kind of the tact point, you know during the conference. Is it something that should be a little bit more secret that we may have lost MW Jewelers, you know where we completely up front or we just trying to you know, rally the troops. But yeah. And then another point. methodology so, you know if we decide on an action How do we end up carrying out that action? So is MW you can Arbiter of the money flow. Is there any other major points you guys can think of?
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| '''Cindy:''' I think that covers it.
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| '''Bernhard:''' The not have regarding the I've experienced now with with with the hopping software is also you can have invited sessions. So we could first of all we don't have to record the session and then we can also say okay we want we have an invited session only where we say. Okay, we cannot talk about the future of development of semantic media. We can everyone is is invited to join but it's going to be you know, I don't know on invitation or or on a on a you can also be a talk, but you can you don't have to to make it so public that everybody can listen and just you know, don't you don't know who is who is watching you so
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| '''Cindy:''' The only danger but that is how you message that so that people don't feel like there's something secret
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| '''Bernhard:''' hmm
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| '''Cindy:''' going on. That might be even
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| '''Bernhard:''' and
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| '''Cindy:''' More of a big deal than it actually is.
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| '''Bernhard:''' That's true.
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| '''Mark:''' so Brian, I I assume that you're typing up these bullet points and and gonna email us all about this right so we can I don't know.
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| '''Bryan:''' I mean as usual I'm taking no, I'm horrible at it, but I'm trying to be better but the plan originally I guess would be like normally just putting it on the meeting and think but I can choose to remove some of that and email out this group if makes more sense for the semantic meeting working portion of it.
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| '''Mark:''' Yeah, I think we we can just have a bullet point, you know considering that we're being careful with how sensitive some of this may be. We just have a bullet point where we talk about the future of semantic media Wiki and then email the participants here about you know, so we can collect our thoughts around this and Bernard, I really appreciate you
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah, well.
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| '''Mark:''' taking the taking the initiative on this so.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Okay. Well, my idea is just Why Don't We suggest two sessions? The one session would be led by European himself just a short short new Developers. ideas from him about how to onboard So this can be very open but maybe as a additional talk in the evening or so. and right after that a official Enterprise video Wiki session about how to how to combine combined forces of businesses supporting smw development or something like that where we can make this this concrete and clear statement about you know, we we want to collect not only money but maybe also development resources, you know. so we want to we want to combine the efforts from the from from enterprise-oriented efforts in order to to improve the semantic media Wiki and surrounded extensions development and things like that so that it could be very concrete and such a session. I would actually like
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| '''Cindy:''' you
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| '''Bernhard:''' one of you two officially hosted because I'm all over the conference. I don't want to be There again, I mean I will take part but I would like some some name maybe from you. That's that would be official invitee of this of the or moderators of this session. Maybe we could do it this way.
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| '''Cindy:''' country simple
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| '''Bernhard:''' Hardly, I'm muted.
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| '''Mark:''' Well, it's probably better that way, but I think Cindy's a good choice for the person there.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah, I agree.
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| '''Mark:''' See look look see look at the face. She made I probably should have stayed muted and and said, yeah, I probably should have said I will take the lead on that. Um, although
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| '''Cindy:''' Well, the only danger with me having it is since my employer is the Community Foundation. I would have to be very care, you know because the foundation is not going to get involved in this.
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| '''Mark:''' right
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| '''Cindy:''' So if I were doing it would be have
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| '''Mark:''' you
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| '''Cindy:''' to be clear that it's purely on a personal level.
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| '''Mark:''' Um, so if you are not willing to do it I am willing to do it, you know, just I just didn't want to do I didn't want to volunteer. Then I saw that pain look expression. I was like, oh man, it was good.
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| '''Cindy:''' It seriously, I would love to do it. My only concern is the perception that somehow the foundation is involved in it.
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| '''Bernhard:''' hmm
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| '''Mark:''' Well, I think I think we can make it clear that they're not so.
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| '''Bryan:''' I missed that from
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| '''Cindy:''' Well, let's talk about it.
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| '''Mark:''' Yeah.
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| '''Bryan:''' Bernhard can you repeat so there was
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| '''Cindy:''' I'm sorry.
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| '''Bryan:''' gonna be two sessions one the official one that's on the list for the agenda right now by your own and then the second one is the the private session. Is that what you're talking about?
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah, well, it doesn't have to be private actually so we can say this is a session where all Enterprise oriented people should should join and discuss about how we can combine forces. But I would like to to Really Target people who should should be there on this discussion list because I mean Alexander kisine has to be there. I think at stracon Shingle should be there from because they never have participated in anything, you know, but they're using it so I mean they should now they have their large business. So maybe they can devote developer resources. I don't know but we should talk to them and we should it's a little specifically invite people who we know who base their businesses around it that they are they are there and they share their share their ideas on how to go ahead.
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| '''Cindy:''' You know, that's a really good point about developer resources too. Because if they've got a developer on staff that they devote to semantic media Wiki, you know, they don't need to provide funding if they're providing, you know a developer.
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| '''Bernhard:''' Yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' And I do think that it this has to be a multi-pronged. Approach, you know fund it, you know people who corporations that are using semantic media Wiki for their business model chipping in to give financial resources or developer resources to help fund a stable development program that you know has somebody who's responsibility. It is coordinating to make coordinating the maintenance the maintainership and I do think that it could be it could be a role for the media Wiki stakeholders group there as a nonprofit to Steward that it probably would make sense rather than you know, professional.wiki which you know, or or other companies that have a you know are trying to run a business as you said earlier. But then the other part is that's very important also is building up a thriving volunteer developer community. And I think that's almost as important
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| '''Bryan:''' We do have a you know one person in the meeting here. So Evita. is one representative of You know a user attic company who might not know. About the need and so Vita. Do you have any thought on you know what GE might think about that like not necessarily would they necessarily? You know help sponsor it but how you might approach? What your upper management to inform them or try to get them to? Be receptive to possibly. Helping sponsor something that you use and typically have been free before. if you're listening, but you are on mute if not
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| '''Mark:''' I'm gonna guess since she hasn't said anything that she's off. But I would also point out that one thing she said before about this is why she's talked to, you know person it with an a corporate. area there is why would we pay anything for this when we already pay Mark so That that's I'm gonna guess is probably what they're thinking. But Marcus what do you have to say?
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| '''Markus:''' yeah, it's just I'm thinking about some model we have occasionally. So when we use extensions like that all the extensions, we do not maintain and there are boxing there. And then we we also custom to pay us to fix the box then the Box effects for the community. I think that is a good model if we want to work on the pattern maintain maintaining operations level. So as Cindy said if there is a new media Wiki version we need to just adopt cement media Wiki to that new version. I think we can we can have several models of getting the funds for this and My preferred model is always handed on to my customers. So that's that's a good way, but the the main issue is continuity here and it's it's like Improvement because if if semantically does not evolve more than on a internship level then it will gradually get less attractive and that is something I mean, we're talking here not about the immediate
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Markus:''' future. I mean if I want to run some magic Media review for five more years I can do that and I don't really worry about that because in in the worst case, I've freeze my media Wiki through the LTS version and then I keep it going. So what we're talking about is what happens in in the course of the next five years now, can we build the future we how can semantic media we keep build a future for for more than five years, right? And and that's where we need experts. So And I guess like if we get your own now to instruct to have someone that helps them say legs then it takes at least three years for legs and Lex is a bright person, but it takes at least three years for legs. So that is confident enough to
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| '''Cindy:''' I'm sorry, what all of them would be fine, but I'm sorry not all three of
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| '''Markus:''' actually be able to plus two things in semantic media we call. So, I mean maybe I'm overestimating
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| '''Cindy:''' them. Any one of them would be fine.
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| '''Markus:''' semantic media vehicle for me.
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| '''Cindy:''' Or two one or two of those would be
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| '''Markus:''' That is one super complex piece of
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| '''Cindy:''' fine.
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| '''Markus:''' software. So I'm I have the highest respect for
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Markus:''' semantic media key course as opposed to other pieces of software. Yeah. but I mean the that's that's I guess the best plan we can come up with if you want to go the the lobbying. Approach is we need to find a way to just stabilize some multimedia at the moment and then see if we can find people other than your own two actually build like most every basis. Actually, you know normally like a back five years ago. What I would have done is I would have asked someone a Harish. What are you remember her and say hey we need a community about somatic media. We give you one month of payment and then I'm pretty sure after that we would have the first seats actually isn't it doing something in that area? So I think my worth thinking about it in like the longer run of funding someone like her community organizer.
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| '''Mark:''' I I actually just happened to run into her when a company came to me and asked me to work for them or do some stuff and I saw she was working with that.
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| '''Markus:''' No.
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| '''Mark:''' Group. So anyway, I didn't run into her and talk to her. I just saw oh years where she's active so.
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| '''Bryan:''' Yeah, Bernard asked him. I'm also asking who are you talking about?
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| '''Markus:''' Yeah, it's trying to pull out my web page. So she was when I think at the time when Effective of six years ago when I started joining the community. There was the foundation had a I don't know what have position was like an integration person and so her job was to connect people and you would go to a hackathon and she would just run from person a to person C to take notes and then bring people together and it was like, oh, hey Marcus, it's good to see you now here is someone I want to introduce to you because he has this or she has like similar interests or whatever and the the interesting thing is she was like from her personality. She was the perfect person to do that. So it's it's actually I don't want to to get like, you know do personal assessments, but she was just a perfect person for this. Um, and I've came coming to many situations also as well as what would we would need such a person now to you know to Catalyze, you know speed up on connection making and things.
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| '''Bryan:''' But just as a note, you know, this is not unique I think to open source. I think it's just compounded and a little bit harder but You know companies I've worked for struggled with. You know like a so-called bus number right? Like there's some expertise you have that is crucial to your company and there's one person that knows it right and Sometimes management just can't wrap their head around the fact that it would be disastrous if that one person died in a bus or retired or jumped jobs, and I've personally witnessed that and I've argued pretty hard. And the guy actually just passed away this year of a heart attack while surfing but he would the aerodynamicist that the company I used to work at. He was a brilliant guy and they were just unwilling to hire his and train his successor and now they're just hosed pretty bad. It's for even if you're a company with a single direction and you know what you're doing and you have the money to do it to dedicate it and I'm just seeing it in the open source Community maybe potentially a harder problem this all
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| '''Mark:''' So I actually you know, you talking about the bus number. I remember it. a company that I worked with I'm still working with them. But anyway, they there was a senior geologist there and he was trying to get people retiring people to put their knowledge on the wiki to address this whole bus number sort of thing. And then he retired so couldn't get him to help me out with the wiki after he retired. anyway no, but it's it's a I I think Avita does raise a good point in chat here that companies already see a lot of their they see their courses the people they pay already so like why can't I just You know take care of this.
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| '''Cindy:''' although for commercial software packages they pay for the software and then they still have people on staff to configuring maintain it. so
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| '''Mark:''' right
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| '''Cindy:''' it's sort of a you know. like I understand absolutely understand, you know, we had the same issue when I was at miter, you know, trying to just fund basic maintenance of anything, you know, and You know, I understand that that's a perception but I would argue that they have absolutely no problem plunking down thousands of dollars for commercial software. And then still having people on staff or Consultants to maintain it. And yet some had they feel that they
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| '''Mark:''' right well
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| '''Cindy:''' should get open source software for completely free. Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' So I remember. 20 years ago 20 years ago when I was looking at, you know, I just lost my job and I was looking for new work and I looked at SharePoint and so I could get SharePoint training and I would end up just someone starting out 10 years ago 20 years ago would start out at a hundred thousand dollars for SharePoint which you know Microsoft pays for that. What do you need to do? so anyway It's the same sort of thing.
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| '''Evita:''' I was thinking to your point yet they pay for the license, but it comes with a lot of like, you know, there's always a lot of support for those lessons. that comes with it, so
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Evita:''' I mean, but I do understand your point. I do pay for itself. But yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah, no. Yeah, and I certainly see it. I've dealt with exactly the same type of Thing so I I don't discount that at all. It's just sort of frustrating because the reality of the situation is if you don't pay for it, it's not like there's magical little elves or fairies out there maintaining the software somebody's got to do it. So
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| '''Mark:''' It's too big for the person you're paying to do everything.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' So.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' I I think that's the hard part to really. It's like Bernard was saying, you know, he would he would be willing to pay for a concrete deliverable. Um, but this is gonna take more than just a concrete deliverable. This is gonna take an ongoing maintenance cost. And it's those two those two different things.
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| '''Bryan:''' Yeah for my experience timing and visibility is pretty important when I was kind of the solid administrator for our Wiki that I started. I had no idea about this community and what? What support I could have got and had I known about at a time. I you know could. Really easily make an argument. That would have had you know a good return on investment to get somebody hired and/or pay for you know, a monthly support or whatever. For this but I just didn't know about it. At all and now I left it kind of arrested control of the wiki and really has done them a disservice and they would like to get control back but now it's pretty political. So I am in talks with them right now. They would certainly be willing to pay but now it's a political issue too because it thinks that they own it own the thing. but I mean, I was in charge of you know, I I created a budget for almost five million dollars in software that we we purchased not not Wiki stuff, but Engineering software so the capacity for some companies to spend lots of money on software is certainly there.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Mark:''' I think I think when an interesting things here that in. Evita mentioned the word licensing so it got me thinking about this is what that licensing does. Yeah, you protecting intellectual property rights and all this but what the licensing actually does is pays maintenance costs over time and companies are already familiar with this term of paying for licensing. So when you have something with a free license like media Wiki, you have to move them out to the more con, you know more direct payments of your your paying not for a license you're paying for it, you know the maintenance so maybe that's a way to start talking about this with people. But anyway, But with that that requires a paradigm shift in Paradigm shifts are hard. So who wants to do that? anyway Um, it's been an hour. Go ahead Evita what we're gonna say.
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| '''Evita:''' I was just going to say just for me for what working with you. I don't think it will be a hard sell for me to try to say hey we could do this. Put it to help pay for you know, make them for license or whatever you want to do it. It was just need to be some guarantee that I don't know if it's offered with cement. that comes with a lot of Mark, you know, when we do our upgrades and all we go through a lot so You wouldn't bet it we want you
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| '''Mark:''' Yep.
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| '''Evita:''' wouldn't want to pay and then still have these experiences. It needs to be a better experience when? You upgrade and things like that? so that's just
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| '''Mark:''' That is one thing that if we had if we had directed expenditures we could say we're gonna pay to make sure that the upgrade process works better and more smoothly.
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| '''Evita:''' Yeah, I mean because you know my GE uses SharePoint, so they probably went we already have SharePoint. We'll just go back to they'll do that really quick.
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| '''Cindy:''' And yeah.
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| '''Evita:''' You know.
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| '''Mark:''' Anyway, um, yeah.
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| '''Cindy:''' And then upgrade issue is true. Not just semantic media Wikimedia Wiki itself, and that's something that's That hopefully the stakeholders group can. devote resources to all right. I think time to move on right.
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| '''Mark:''' So yeah. Good talk good talk.
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| '''Cindy:''' Yeah.
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| '''Bryan:''' Okay, so this one a little bit
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| '''Cindy:''' All right.
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| '''Bryan:''' So this one a little bit different in that I'm gonna post the meeting notes to the meeting page on MW steak. And then there's a portion of it that I'll email out individually to you guys and gals.
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| '''Mark:''' Sounds good. | | '''Mark:''' Sounds good. |
Raw transcript:
Bryan: like
Lex: I
Bryan: hey, can you go back to that? On and you think and see what it says for your icons there. I changed it from the HTML version to just a copy paste it icon. But if that doesn't work, I think I'll just use a image. for the
Lex: where is that exactly?
Bryan: even the main page and you just click
Lex: Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah.
Bryan: What is what it like?
Lex: No, no, we've still got this strange. show you
Bryan: What are you using Firefox?
Lex: yeah at the moment. Yes.
Bryan: Yeah, I think that's probably it. I checked Chrome and Internet Explorer and Edge and it'll seem right but I think
Lex: Okay. Well, let me check the others.
Bryan: fire
Lex: Guys, just a green. Current status, it's just green and I'm bronze now.
Bryan: But right I'm not I'm not actually interested in as much in the what your status is. But what is the icon look like?
Lex: Yeah, just a square.
Bryan: for You okay? Yeah, I think I'll
Lex: with the green
Bryan: make that an image instead of a icon. bummer Is there there's probably a way I can find out like what browsers respect? What icon right?
Lex: Oh.
Bryan: oh, and by the way You're transaction Lex seemed to have worked. At least from the logs perspective. That's what Mark just said.
Lex: It hasn't worked.
Bryan: It has indeed.
Lex: I does. Okay, okay. Okay, fine.
Bryan: Yeah, I was getting a lot of that trying to change into the corporate membership.
Mark: You again?
Lex: hmm
Mark: It's you guys again.
Bryan: Yes. And he would have thought.
Markus: It's always always the same Five Guys.
Mark: Well it it's good. I you know, there's no beer to drink here, but Although although again. People are drinking. Oh, well, is that beer is that
Markus: coffee Yeah, I always disguise my dearest coffee because it's my social relatives, you know more socially
Mark: a right
Markus: accepted if you drink coffee during the day.
Mark: same anyway I'm just gonna enjoy looking at you guys because you're so handsome you're so. Up Sandy. I have to you can't hear what I just said because
Cindy: Why?
Mark: I was talking about well, I guess I'll tell you um I was just saying to these other men here. Oh, I guess I I just enjoyed looking at how handsome you guys are you're
Bryan: you
Mark: beautiful.
Cindy: There's nothing wrong with that.
Mark: Well, yes, but you know. And Evita's join us. Hello Evita again.
Cindy: So this is basically the same meeting we just had.
Mark: Yes, it is. That's fine.
Cindy: That should make it go fast.
Mark: Um
Lex: time
Mark: Yeah, actually I did I did reach out to I told Brian this last night. I did reach out to the indict group. I have not heard back. So I maybe I just reached out to the wrong person. But I was hoping that they could join us this this. month But they didn't. so anyway um any interesting uses of media Wiki in your lives is this past month? No, okay.
Markus: I since it has been mentioned before there's this composer update composer 200. I don't really know what to expect from this so it gives me all warnings. Like if I update there might be some things breaking but does anyone has any experience with that? Did you update composer to compose it Oh. too?
Bryan: I I just saw that warning that I haven't done anything with it yet. I was hoping somebody else would do it and then give me a feedback.
Mark: I have you done anything. I you mentioned something with its I needed you do anything with it.
Cindy: No, I haven't done anything with it. I know that it's an issue for the composer merge plugin and there's a volunteer patch to compose emerge plugin. That's I haven't checked to see whether it got merged. But it was being considered that would make a composer merge plugin work for composer 2.0. So if you're using composer merge plugin. Until that gets merged you can't upgrade and my understanding is that there were various other. Issues as well and I'm not sure whether composer 2.0 is the reason that semantic media Wiki tests are failing now, I suspect it's that might be a component in addition to deprecations in 35.
Mark: Yeah, I I also saw the test for failing in semantic media Wiki because I I made a patch or whatever against it. Um art was probably against another you know extension it relies on it. I think it's manic extra special properties was when I was doing um,
Evita: so
Mark: Yeah, I tried to look at it.
Evita: you can I say something just to let you guys know how clueless a lot of time I am when you guys talk. I actually know what composer is now. I just my first Wiki on my personal
Cindy: Why?
Evita: computer a couple weeks ago. So I'm proud of myself for that it took me a long time, but
Bryan: And literally so I knew what a composer was but until like earlier this week. I had never actually installed anything that depended on composer. It's my first actual experience with it. And then I got a warning that I was using an old version and that always freaks me out. And I also got a warning. So maybe this is just an open question. So it failed when I ran. And so it was basically complaining.
Evita: skip
Bryan: I'm finally did it and then another directory and I was like hi. Okay, whatever. So what if I try to do it with pseudo and it worked but then it said hey don't ever do that.
Cindy: Yeah.
Bryan: So what?
Cindy: Oh, I always run it as rude and I always ignore the message saying I shouldn't do that.
Mark: I never
Bryan: Okay.
Cindy: I'm not I'm not saying that's the thing to do. But yeah.
Markus: It me too. Yeah.
Cindy: Yeah.
Mark: Lex Lex do you run in his route?
Bryan: I
Mark: I never run in his route. So
Lex: composer I think do yeah.
Mark: Yeah. Why why y'all do that? I don't understand anyway, um.
Bryan: well How do you how do you how do you allow it to create the directories that it needs? Or do you manually create it or what? How do you do it without? I mean, I know there was a it actually told me where to look to learn about it and I just failed to do that. So
Mark: So I install whenever I install media Wiki, it's always installed usually as the user that I am. And in that user is not the web user because I don't want the web user being able to write any PHP files it has so. Um, are y'all installing media Wiki as the web user? Or is Route itself?
Markus: No.
Mark: what what user I mean because as far
Lex: No.
Mark: as I know the only directory it needs is the vendor directory, right?
Bryan: Well, it needs the vendor directory and then within the vendor directory, there's a smart a smarty directory and within the smarting directory. There's another smarty directory. And so regarding just a trait what it needed one by one but just kept wanting more things and just didn't know if I was you know, so I just didn't. root Provisions that
Mark: I I've never run into that so I don't know. You're gonna have to you're gonna have to show me your composer Jason file or whatever that you were installing because I have never run into that problem. So I'm very I wouldn't say very I'm careful. Oh, look. Look who's just showed up.
Cindy: Yeah.
Mark: So I Bernard we were just talking about you because semantic media Wiki conference.
Bernhard: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hello. Sorry
Cindy: Hello.
Mark: Hey. No problem.
Bernhard: So any questions regarding the conference or
Mark: We how is the planning going?
Bernhard: Oh, very good. Actually, I think we have a great program already. Most of the slots are filled except for tutorials, maybe there would be it would be place for that or some create camp or hackathon things if you Guys are interested. We can also plan that more in the evening so that it would be time wise. Suitable or also for you?
Cindy: I do appreciate you adjusting the
Bernhard: so
Cindy: time so that it's more us friendly.
Bernhard: yeah, yeah. And we will probably we just today tested Hopkins who will probably use hopping for the conference.
Cindy: What's it called?
Bernhard: Which hop in?
Cindy: Hop in it's a new one to me.
Bernhard: It's a British company, I think. And it's a little bit different than doing it with soon because we assume it's like like here with meat. It's just you know, you you everyone
Bryan: skip
Bernhard: can show up and someone can present and you have a chat. And with helping it's more. It's more like a virtual real conference. so you would you would go into a session and listen to it, and there would be presenters and you can go out to to a Both are a virtual Cafe. And you can join in again and if you
Cindy: nice
Bernhard: And if you want to raise a question, you can use the chat but you can also be invited to share your your video and audio but it's not usually that everyone sees everyone so it has pros and cons but we just the the main Pro is I think you don't have to install any Zoom client. So but you can just use it in the browser. So we're gonna try this one.
Bryan: That's really cool something. I was actually thinking about at the last one. Is there like a virtual Lobby or something where you can come out and then you you see what sessions are running and you can choose very
Bernhard: Yes. Yes.
Bryan: cool.
Cindy: That's nice.
Bernhard: Yeah.
Cindy: That's that's a big Improvement.
Bernhard: Yeah. So in case any any one of you would be interested in in organizing some specialized grade cap session or whatever. I'm all open for that. So, please just
Cindy: Well, maybe this is a good idea to
Bryan: it
Mark: Sounds good.
Lex: Okay.
Cindy: excellent
Lex: do a burner
Bernhard: Yeah.
Lex: Did you make question about this semantic search GitHub aspect? I'm not sure whether it's an issue a project or a branch or a tag.
Bernhard: Yeah, I have to search it as well. I don't know.
Lex: Look, it's not urgent at all. But if you
Bernhard: Yeah, sure.
Lex: if you
Bernhard: I I think it was some.
Lex: I had it but I couldn't find anything.
Bernhard: Yeah.
Lex: Maybe I'm I don't. Look for it at the right place. No urgent at all.
Bernhard: Alright. Yeah sure. I will try to find it because I'm I want to know where it is myself so.
Lex: Okay. But good.
Cindy: Skip take care everybody good to see you.
Bernhard: Okay.
Cindy: Bye. Good to see you. Everybody.
Bernhard: Yeah and have
Markus: Take care.
Bryan: I said
Lex: to do my
Markus: Bye see you.
Bryan: it
Lex: Okay man an immunog, I'm sorry, Brian. Should I switch back to English?
Bryan: No go far. I'm just gonna go eat some cereal.
Lex: Okay, and
Mark: or
Lex: It does not cloudy people. distance. Always it's just scenario.
Bernhard: to Massachusetts
Lex: Yeah, that's why so hard to talking
Bernhard: all of us
Lex: about. Let's teaming and talking to who's here. Hey dummy, it moves to hold the vehicle of person problem is it made with interducts this actually moves? a body when it comes more That's not mine.
Bernhard: that
Lex: Otherwise he helped you he jumps forward and said of the corona optician yet. Job, yeah for teen talking my positive contestant whenever. And they try take Target to house and
Bernhard: okay.
Lex: it's kind of house. open and also when they may happy Stone jungle up.
Bernhard: first time
Lex: my stomach and
Markus: If this is this wasn't Hardy as it.
Lex: even
Markus: before and if you didn't climb into a bicones to our bodies, couldn't you had a long well if you have no
Lex: Bernhard
Bernhard: yeah.
Markus: that's to yeah, it's a holiday.
Lex: The Hawks and the spear is addition. Yeah, is that any prominent
Bernhard: Yeah moments.
Lex: motivation took too? Well, so almost
Bernhard: Interstice. Yeah, the seniors can lock down sponsors, Nick Smith.
Lex: guys
Bernhard: beer
Lex: You know, I have two phones a beanie
Bernhard: pizza houses
Lex: with a mask here.
Bernhard: Yeah, I'm gonna quit spending the hummus in agony good stuff for and Vicky Consulting quick Advanced sustainability. So that gets into major vacation alone. and confidence Vicky That's another question.
Lex: But your email.
Bernhard: because
Lex: Okay. our email rickyahoyanto
Bernhard: he
Lex: now, okay.
Markus: if for option with my video
Lex: also Yeah, that that's my command and each while it's still talking me that much.
Markus: Long-term. Okay, he made me stand with him.
Lex: Okay.
Markus: Yeah.
Bernhard: Okay. ciao
Lex: Down, yeah.
Bernhard: has
Lex: yeah, I got them busy sooner versus I'll be here and Carlton talk to me at
Bernhard: not yeah.
Lex: Great Space missing my sport baby tomorrow boss on them our mortgage on animate skit s and Vietnam Well, I would say. I so yeah, that's too small contain anymore.
Bernhard: none may feel home office. I want it contained in it.
Lex: So take me.
Bernhard: No.
Lex: like
Bernhard: Yeah tutorial session Frontier.
Lex: yeah, it's been so in react coding. It's took me a slightly twice about
Bernhard: you
Lex: you hopped Ashton and see I showed this program to some other.
Bernhard: you have the stream channel.
Lex: Even also it's about even they sell barbecue mechanics fine. Our skill in damage is out of each sponsor a Libra boss. But I don't think the opportunity that's costing me at least most is react as you've been in go programming on react programming it's thing. On thus yeah, that's abducted. The skip bit each name is small countries.
Bernhard: Okay.
Lex: College mean this song he came out Overhauls your housekeeper. Thank you.
Bernhard: okay first
Lex: and coolest programmers on
Bernhard: yeah, you're not constantly.
Lex: This hope this is hoping it cool out.
Bernhard: Yeah.
Lex: quickly gets annoyed job
Bernhard: Yeah, yeah. Good done. Sure enough. You know, thank you. Who's
Bryan: Well Lex.
Lex: Hi, Brian, so no, I just didn't want to disconnect with a saying. Goodbye.
Bryan: Okay. Yeah, and I I just went and grabbed some cereal that you guys talked, but that's crazy that you you you're the first person. That I actually know. A firsthand not through somebody else that has now gotten coded.
Lex: Yeah. Now I know a lot of people now. Yeah, it's closing in and I think you know most likely most of us will get it at some point.
Bryan: Yep. Yep.
Lex: and we just have to make sure that yeah, you keep your immune system up and if you have to if it's serious well then get the good treatment. But you know it there might never be a vaccination and imagine if there there's never a vaccination. Well, we can't go on like this. You know. Locking up people for months, and then that's just not feasible.
Bryan: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know. what the interesting argument that I used to use about more related to self-driving cars and that We you know, we have the shifting Baseline of acceptance, right and my argument was in the us alone. We kill somewhere between 30 and 40,000 people every year.
Lex: Yeah.
Bryan: Vehicles every year we that's how many people die right and and we're okay with it now. It's like that's a part of daily life and what and my argument was that.
Lex: now
Bryan: self-driving cars have the potential to drastically reduce that right, but there's still a fear that Let's just pretend that it went from you know, 35,000 to 1,000. Right but there was 1,000 still died, but it wasn't just because of something random like a an actual driven car by a human runs into the self-driving car. If it was actually just some weird glitch. There's something innate about us that like we would still fear that like
Lex: well
Bryan: Dropping be somehow scarier if this computer could do it. But but you know, we have a 30-fold reduction in deaths, but we think
Lex: Yeah.
Bryan: because of this weird programming glitch, even though objectively we're way safer.
Lex: but imagine if you board a plane when you board a plane there's about 30 million code lines that are executed
Bryan: Yep.
Lex: and there's a machine, you know assembled out of 30 Million Parts by some 20 year olds in Seattle and you have no problem whatsoever to get into that machine.
Bryan: Well something most people but I mean, I guess here's the thing. Um, it makes our death more deterministic and that's scary. Right? Like let's say that every day that you go out on a walk. You have a one in 10,000 chance of dying right just for over walk related Falls or
Lex: No.
Bryan: But it's just it seems natural. Right but let's pretend that that was switched with you walk outside and you hit a button and a stream of numbers come up and if it ends up happening to be the number 10,000. You are exiting on the spot, right?
Lex: Yeah, yeah.
Bryan: Right? We so fearful of hitting that button because it's just it changes it from being a natural thing to like this program it deterministic fear, right? But anyway, that's all a setup to say that. if we had if cars weren't killing anybody or you know, human drivers driving cars weren't killing anybody. And suddenly we killed 40,000 people because of something new like cars were new or something new happened. It would be, you know outrageous and we would be fearful of it and and Because it's not this shifting Baseline, right? We haven't gradually become used to it. So it's now suddenly super terrible and bad but you know in the US we kill something between you know, 40 and 60,000 people every year because of the the normal flu that circulates every flu season, right sometimes a little bit worse. Sometimes it's not as bad. But that's the CDC estimate. Right? And again, we have become used to that but now a new one comes through and it is admittedly worse, right but You know, it's it's weird. It's I think it's because it's this new thing that we get super frightened by it. So my analogy about the new thing
Lex: you
Bryan: freaking people out. In my argument about cars has come to fruition in and you know code. So it could be that well shouldn't I shouldn't say it could be it probably is that this is a new virus that will continue to circulate and and keep killing us at some point. We might be better as Population of Earth and trying to eradicate, you know, a lot of deaths from a lot more viruses including the common flu covid and and others but but here's where we are right now and it is bizarre that you know, we ground a lot of economies to a halt because of it.
Lex: Yeah, really? strange But so yeah, you and your family you're all fine. And
Bryan: Yeah again, I I personally You're the first that I know
Lex: Okay.
Bryan: firsthand that the god. So yeah, how about yourself? Everybody else's that?
Lex: Yeah. Yeah, I think my dad probably has picked it up. My uncle is positive. A couple of children. I know. Yeah, I know. I I know a good dozen people now have it. I mean, you know, someone has to have it because if you don't I mean it's all right now no I want to but not your case, but I always joke with people if you live on for years and you don't know anyone then you just have no friends. But don't misunderstand that now I was just pulling back from that right? Because if 10 years down the road something I know absolutely no one who has a well then you don't really know where a lot of people because it has to
Bryan: and
Lex: at some point
Bryan: yeah.
Lex: appear, right
Bryan: Yeah, yeah.
Lex: But that you know, I didn't want to. Allege anything there? I know it's not true. That why that's why I can make it but sometimes you know, it's you have to be careful with this kind of joke. it's some people I do are a little lonely and so
Bryan: Yeah. Well, I mean, I do know quite a few people and and and because of that I know. I do know, you know secondhand quite a few right? But but again, it's pretty weird that you know firsthand. I'm the only one interestingly. I was looking at the per capita. You know I was talking to. Your own Corrine about you know a potential Spring EMW Con in person. and you know, I I so I looked up actually I'll share it with you because I think it's a pretty good format for it but a good graphic for Corona spread, but yeah per capita right now. Looks like you guys are kicking some butt.
Lex: Mm-hmm.
Bryan: Yeah, here you go. Before I forget let me download the transcript for this. And why do I do that? Let's see. No. Well, then I'm trying to remember how to do something. I have an add-in called tactic. allows the this this meaning normally you can turn on closed captioning. and then it just grabs those so I can download the meeting transcript.
Lex: Okay.
Bryan: but how do I Yeah, there you go.